When and why to hurry the production?

[Dominae]

joncnunn, "reasonable timeframe" is a very loose term. Depending on the specific tiles available, very few cities can produce Factories fast enough that they would not benefit from a bit of rushing. Factory prebuilds are not easy, because you need many uncompleted Wonders (and the Palace, of course). So it is very difficult to finish Factories in cities on the turn Industrialization comes around. In my games there is usually 5-10 turns left in most core cities. I will rush those at the first opportunity. Each of them will definitely benefit.


Dominae

[realpolitic]

Whenever you pop rush you'll be losing the future production from those citizens who die. In order to make most poprushing useful, your goals have to be very short term. The builds mentioned above are sometimes candidates, and if you absolutely need culture a scientific civ MIGHT rush a library. I sometimes fight a first war, come close to a capitol, sign a peace traty, and rushbuild culture to keep from losing cities.

[Bluefrog]

Originally posted by realpolitic
Whenever you pop rush you'll be losing the future production from those citizens who die. In order to make most poprushing useful, your goals have to be very short term. The builds mentioned above are sometimes candidates, and if you absolutely need culture a scientific civ MIGHT rush a library. I sometimes fight a first war, come close to a capitol, sign a peace traty, and rushbuild culture to keep from losing cities.

Actually, if I'm playing a scientific civ, I'll make a point to rush libraries in border towns as soon as I can, usually with gold-rush. This grows your borders fast, and also makes the cities less likely to flip to an enemy.

[Arrian]

Dominae,

I typically don't do much factory rushing. I'll use anything I can find as a shield-holder (a palace, sometimes an army if I have the Mil Academy, often Cavalry in other cities), and that cuts down on the build time. I will rushbuy a factory if I anticipate any real competition for the industrial wonders (Univ Suff, ToE, Hoover), so I can get going.

But by and large, my core cities build their factories normally. I am rarely fighting a major war at that time... and if I am, I have a big advantage (Cav vs. Muskets or something like that). Thus, I can afford to take the time to build the factories normally, while using my cash to keep a 4 or 5 turn/tech pace going.

I can think of a recent game (didn't finish it) as Carthage where I probably should have rushed my factories. Commercial, while still a weak trait, does indeed make you rich. Wow. With a 16-city empire on a normal map/8 civs (I didn't fire a shot for the whole game, and have reached the mid-industrial age), I built up (without really meaning to) $6,000+ in my treasury, while gaining a tech lead (Monarch level). Yeesh. Some of that had to do with having almost no military for a loooooong time, but still, wow!

It's actually a perfect setup for a knock down, drag out industrial war (which some people seem to like... I'm not a huge fan). There are 5 other civs on my continent, and 4 of them are pretty evenly matched (France, Babylon, England!, Ottomans) and the 5th (China) isn't too weak. France & the Babs have a MPP. England and the Ottomans have a MPP. Germany, across the ocean, has just wiped out Russia. They are backward and are in possession of a couple of luxuries and resources I want. The Dark Side calls. But, if one were to NOT go after them, the home continent could get really interesting.

But I digress.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Uh-oh, I feeling another disagreement on par with the "early Culture" question coming on.

I also try to prebuild as many factories as I can. My point above is just that Factories cost so much that you can only prebuild them up to a point. If you time it well, the Factories should be more than half done by the time you get Industrialization. This puts them well within the "I can afford to rush that" range.

For me, the question of whether to build a Factory in a city is related to: "Will I build things in this city, and, more importantly, will they be useful to me?". In all my games, the answer is 'yes' for all my core cities. Going along with my "right now" mentality, I can usually put immediate Factories too good use in those 6 or so turns where I would otherwise still be building them. Usually with Factories, I can get the 45 Shields required for 2-turn Infantry, so 6 turns = 3 Infantry per city.

Clearly if you're already dominating with Cavalry against Musketmen, you may not have much use for Infantry. But in those games that I actually do finish (we seem to have the same problem in this regard), I find that an early Industrial age force is a must. Although you mght think you have the game in hand because you're 4 techs ahead (and you very well might), actually finishing the game is another matter entirely. AU203 is an example of this: I'm around 6 techs ahead, but dominating the world will still require some effort. On the other hand, in any game where victory is far from secured at the beginning of the Industrial age, I will spare no expense on Factories.


Dominae

[Arrian]

I agree that if you really feel you need the productive capacity more than the money, rushbuying factories makes sense.

Another reason I think I generally am not in a huge rush (heh) do get the factories built (though I do beeline for industrialization, of course) is because of the long period of time in the industrial age between infantry and tanks... where there isn't (OR RATHER WASN'T*) much to build but units.

* - Hmm... however, with the addition of stock exchanges & commercial docks... there is more stuff to build. **Arrian ponders a change in priorities**

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Yup, Stock Exchanges and Commercial Docks are great to have up and running fast (combine with Smith's...ahh).

I have to admit that my opinion regarding Factories is somewhat biased by the AU mod. With 8-power Infantry, military campaigns are a real possibility between Replaceable Parts and Tanks. Set up some nice defensive positions and add a whole bunch of Artillery, and you've got a war of attrition the AI rarely wins.


Dominae

[Beta]

Originally posted by Arrian
BetaHound,

That thread is probably out of date, since the poprushing rules have changed.

Poprushing used to be a lot more powerful, in that you got 40 shields out of the 1st unit of population used up, and the unhappiness effect wasn't working properly either.

-Arrian

Arrian, Thanks!

Yes - you are probably right about the thread. I hadn't thought about the changes.

And yes, you are definitely right that it has changed the conclusions. What I liked about it was the methodology he used in determining when it made 'economic' sense to do it. Game situation still has to be taken into consideration and will likely dictate in most cases, but it was nice to have an 'all things being equal' way of looking at it.

Hmmm ... maybe someone should revisit and rewrite that post.

[BRC]

I just thought I'd throw this out there.

On Regent and even sometimes on Monarch, I had success fighting early wars to extort tech, and saving money, so that I could rush libraries at the beginning of the medievil ages. Coupled with a Golden Age, and my huge treasury, I was able to research all the techs with wonders, before the AI could. Somewhere between the Hanging Gardens and Leo's, I would break the AI's cascades, and then building the rest of the wonders was a cinch. The reason that it was important to research was so that you would be able to start pre-builds earlier than the AI's, and make them eat the shields that they had been saving. I don't think that this works any higher than Monarch, and even not all the time, but it is something to think about. Other than that I will pop-rush temples if I am religious, and courthouses and other things in halfway corrupt cities. I'm going to have to look at rushing Factories.

[Arrian]

Betahound,

Yeah, it would be interesting to see a cost-benifit analysis of poprushing with the new rules. I'm not the type to do it, though. I tend to do it based on feel, and leave it at that.

I'm sure, however, that the basic issues will come up in the PTW Demo Game we're both involved in. Each team will have to decide whether or not to poprush and, if so, when and where to do it. Given the level of debate GS has had so far about every other possible topic, I'm sure we'll do some sort of analysis of poprushing to determine whether or not it's a good idea. Maybe after the game is over that information can be offered to the general public.

One of the key factors that makes early poprushing (things like temples) worth it or not worth it is corruption, which is tough to gauge (unless you're alexman). New cities are often 1-shield towns until they hit pop2 or 3. Blowing a pop point in a city that can be made relatively productive relatively soon (heh, notice how exact I am about this) is counterproductive. OTOH, a city that won't be productive for some time should use its population (its only asset) by poprushing something cultural and then building workers for a while.

My use of rushing tends to reverse itself as the game progresses: early on, I poprush temples in border towns and spearmen in captured cities. Once I switch over to a rushbuying government, I will concentrate on the "inbetween" towns. Towns which will be productive once they have the proper development. I may rush something in the core, but typically only if I'm racing to build wonders but my best wonder-builder really, really, really needs that library. Normally, paying a ton of money to speed a library by 4 turns or so wouldn't be my choice, but if I know that the city in question will then be spending 30 turns or so building a wonder (and thus cannot build the library until after that's done), it's really shaving 34 turns off of the library construction, isn't it? Then towards the end of the game, my rushing returns to the fringe: cities overseas and such.

-Arrian

[Dominae]

Different but related topic:

Playing AU203, it is surprising to see how weak poprushing is under Communism compared to Despotism. Since all your cities are mildly productive under Communism, you always want your cities to stay big in order to get a chance at a few extra Shields. Poprushing works against this. Most small improvements can be completed in a normal amount of turns (8-10 turns for a Library in a captured city, etc.), so poprushing those seems a waste. But the big improvements (Factories, especially) cost so many Shields that you'll never "rush" them in a reasonable timeframe. For real rushing, Gold is far better in the later eras. Currently in AU203, I'm stuck at around 8000 Gold after MA upgrades, and I have nothing to do with it!


Dominae

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by Dominae
Currently in AU203, I'm stuck at around 8000 Gold after MA upgrades, and I have nothing to do with it!

You don't need NMD yet? Elite spies ought to be useful. I've used Steal Military Plans effectively before large 1 turn strikes.

When a conscript MI can be disbanded for 27 shields, poprushing is always inefficient. I was going to suggest paid labour for Communism for the AU MOD but it goes against the spirit of Communism and doesn't help the AI. It would help Communism in the one use I've found for it: the industrial age REX.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Arrian
Given the level of debate GS has had so far about every other possible topic,

Arrian ... I know what you mean and there are only six of us on Vox. I can imagine what it must be like at your end.

Great post above, by the way. And that is essentially how I play the game as well - more by feel. You need to know the mechanics and cost-benefits (I think I have read everything Vel and you and the others have ever written ten times over - but after that - it comes down to situation, timing, experience, and intuition.

Cheers! Beta.

PS - I'm Apolyton's rep for the proposed inter-site PTW match against 1BC, CivFanatics, etc. I have posted a thread - Apolyton's Reputation... in the Demo Game forum. We could certainly use some of the talent from GS and the other teams. Can you and the others take a boo, please, and if interested, post in the thread. Thanks!

[Dominae]

Originally posted by Nor Me
You don't need NMD yet? Elite spies ought to be useful. I've used Steal Military Plans effectively before large 1 turn strikes.

NMD?

I toyed briefly with the Espionage screen, but my game is all but over now. I spy on their troops when I meet them on the battefield!

When a conscript MI can be disbanded for 27 shields, poprushing is always inefficient.

Hm, didn't know that. Another one of those things that is optimal but adds tedium to the game.

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by Dominae
NMD?

SDI? You won't need it if you've already won.

Hm, didn't know that. Another one of those things that is optimal but adds tedium to the game.

It beats buying caravans one row at a time.