Alone, or Shared Starting Location?

[swagled]

In Civ II it seemed like it was better to spend some time alone, if possible, nurturing your empire... before going out and meeting other civs. People called it "Ostriching".

But in Civ III, I think it's a tougher call. I played a game not long ago where I had the "good fortune" to have a continent all to myself. This gave me plenty of room to grow and build. (I even found another continent and colonized it before meeting anyone. 45% of the world was mine without a fight!)

But, during this time, the other civs had been trading techs amongst each other, and most of the medeival wonders were snapped up. Buy the time we came in contact, they already had Destroyers, and Transports loaded with Marines... Kind of hard to tell them "no" with every demand they made...

Games where you share a continent make it much more likely to share techs early on, so you don't waste time researching things like Pottery. But then, you may not have much room to grow, and those Roman legions and Aztec warriors are all over you, trying to wrest some Lebenstraum...

Any consensus on the better starting location, (shared or isolated?) Or is this just a matter of player taste, kind of like which Civ to use?

[Bluefrog]

Ideally, it would be great to be on your own continent, yet able to see the border of another civ on a neighboring landmass. That way, you get the time to spread before Mapmaking, and get the benefits of being in the tech loop.

But like that situation is ever going to happen, heh.

Seriously, I prefer being with someone else, preferably a few civs. In my current game (standard, continent, 70%) there are two major landmasses. I'm playing the Ottomans, and there are 4 other civs on my continent. There are 3 other civs on the other continent, which we recently made contact. Most of my continent is nearing the end of the middle ages, with the exception of Russia, who had a hideous starting position and never managed to gain a foothold on the mainland (they are attached to the continent by a one-tile botleneck). At any rate, the 3 civs across the way are just getting the first middle age techs.

The two tech leaders on my continent are myself and the Persians. I'm trying (and mostly succeeding) in learning the techs that they aren't going for, and trading them for the techs I don't have. At the same time, I'm trading older techs, luxuries, or resources to the less-advanced cultures...more to tie up their gold than to hoard all the money for me. This prevents Persia from trading away their techs, because they can't find a reasonable trade anywhere. The result, which is becoming more and more apparent, is a staggered level of tech advances. Persia and I lead, and a few more civs are 3-4 techs behind us, and the civs on the other continent, and Russia, are hopelessly behind.

And more, if you aren't sharing a landmass, it makes it impossible in the early game to get a leader. Sure, if you're patient with barbs, and don't colonize all parts of your continent, you can still get some elite troops...but nothing at all significant. I'm not a pure builder or a pure warmonger, more of a mixture of both. If I wasn't interested in combat at all, then I suppose being alone might be remotely appealling, but not very.

I guess you could try an archipelago map with just one or two opponents to see what would happen in terms of tech...might be interesting to see how the tech advance/wonder building goes, though it would probably bore me to tears.

[Jawa Jocky]

Isolation starts make for interesting comeback games. IMO they are way harder.

[Arrian]

It depends. With nice enough land, you can out-build the AI even on Emperor (I've done it). But most of the time, I'd rather have several AI neighbors who will research techs and build cities for me

If you intend to play "builder" style, isolation has its advantages, particularly if you can make contact with some civs via galleys (suicide runs are worth it).

If you play more of a "warmonger" style then isolation is the worst fate possible.

-Arrian

[joncnunn]

In an insolated start, you need to do some actuall reseraching, to at least Literature and build the Great Libary.

Then you can spend your time perfecting your emipre with the techs you got and building the FP in the ideal location.

Then in the modern era when the second of those civs contacts you, your brought up to tech parity that same turn. You still want contact when the rest of the world is in the late middle ages though.

With that isolated start, you might have a good chance of getting the UN vote (if you build it) because you haven't had the oppertunity to be a war-mongler.

[Nor Me]

Originally posted by Bluefrog
But like that situation is ever going to happen, heh.

Happened in my most recent game.

[joncnunn]

I once had a start where I was on an island to myself and still in the main tech loop. The problem was that this island had NO rivers, only 1 fresh lake tile, and half of the landmass was permeantly cut off from fresh water access. Much of what could be irrigated was initally covered in jungle.

[Nor Me]

I have only a 1-tile freshwater lake too. But it was next to my capital which helped with the wonders.

[Theseus]

We've played some isolation games in AU... they can be VERY hard. The GLib, and whether to keep researching if you can get it, become biiiiiig issues.

As long as I have room for 3-6 towns at 3 spacing, I'd rather have neighbors.

[Brizey]

I had a recent game with basically an ideal "isolated" start. I had the third largest landmass all to myself. The second largest landmass was one (yes one) tile away. It had two civs on it. Perfect. I built the GL and made contact with the two civs just when everyone had galleys. My land was awesome. I had a city with two cows and six bonus grasslands.

I was the Chinese. I built a gazillion horseman and five galleys. When I got Chivalry, I eliminated the closer of the two civs (English). When I got miltrad, I finshed off Hiawatha.

At this point the other civs, who I discovered with suicide runs, were a few dozen turns from Magnetism. I had used my Rider GA to beeline to miltrad. I had about a third of the landmass to myself. Game over.

[High_Lord]

Originally posted by Nor Me


Happened in my most recent game.

Hey me too! I was Germany, Greec was right off my northeastern coast (standard,cont.,70%) and I ended up trading for then demanding from them techs while I wiped the Zulu off my little continent. I would have let Shaka live but it was a too little continent and all the gems were in his half of it

Now I have 5 tradeable Ivories + 3 tradeable Gems so I can pretty much wheel and deal with everyone...of course, my Iron ran out and no Rubber so far on my cont., so looks like war again just as when I had no coal


One time though I played the Romans and was all alone on a little Island with noone to kill with my legions

[High_Lord]

Originally posted by joncnunn
I once had a start where I was on an island to myself and still in the main tech loop. The problem was that this island had NO rivers, only 1 fresh lake tile, and half of the landmass was permeantly cut off from fresh water access. Much of what could be irrigated was initally covered in jungle.

Hahaha man that reminds me of one time, I had a two big ol' islands to myself (my mainland was the largest in game and my island was about 3rd) plus about 6 cities on 2 or 3 other little islands...I zoom ahead only to discover that NOT ONE OF MY F-ING LANDMASSES HAD A RIVER ...but ALL of the other guys had rivers out the poo poo hole...that wiped the smile right off my face cause I couldent even build one stinking hydro plant , let alone the Hoover Dam. Boy I sure had plenty of stupid lakes though. And, come to think of it, I had to cut through half a continent of jungle too, but what I really hate is when mountains cut a cont. in half and you have to wait until much later to irrigate anything on the other side.

[Robber Baron]

Isolated starts make for extremely nerve-wracking games, at higher levels of play. You know they're out there in the fog, busily growing and gaining techs ....
You can burrow in and try to build your way along -- but of course, you have to learn the requisite techs in order to build city improvements, so your building is stunted badly. (Plus, of course, you can't cherrypick AI cities -- itself a form of "building." )
All kinds of options are closed off on isolated islands -- conquest, diplomacy, tech/resource/lux brokering .... I've come to dread island starts.
But then, dread and nervewrack are what make this game so glorious! It is hugely satisfying to catapult from obscurity to centrality.

[vulture]

I managed to get the isolated start effect by having a mere 4 other civs on my continent in a 12 civ game (currently ongoing). Being the Romans, I went to war early and often. Got the Great Library, which was of no immediate use as I'd pruned the Japanese, Chinese and Americans back rather severely (all exterminated before the end of the ancient era - no leaders ). The fourth civ was the Egyptians - actually on their own on a nearby (safe galley-crossing) large island. Our continent had the early tech lead (so I captured the Pyramids, Lighthouse and something else which I forget now - possible the Oracle), but while we were still mucking around with ancient era warfare (I wasn't exactly researching much) the other continent was building middle age wonders. And eliminating the English, which is always a good move.

I made contact with the French via suicide galley, at the third or fourth attempt, but didn't buy any more contacts off them. This is one of those places where the AI treats the player civ differently from everyone else. The French never sold contact with me to anyone else. I bet that if I sold them contact with the Egyptians (never going to happen, as I was trying for the Arrian deception), then within 2 turns the Egyptians would be in touch with the rest of the world.

When the rest of the world discovered my little continent they were nearly an age ahead, and I went from having two middle age techs to having 3 industrial ones in a pretty rapid fashion - got all but 4 middle ages techs from the library, and managed to buy myself into contention pretty quickly (commercial shows its benefits all of a sudden - I could make enough money in 3 turns to buy nationalism - far better than buying it on a gpt basis (like I could - I didn't wipe out Egypt in time, thanks to all their cities being on hills)).

So I'm in a good position tech-wise, but have notable disadvantages:

Very little infrastructure - having been warmongering, most of my cities didn't have libraries or marketplaces, partly because I couldn't complete my FP until late middle ages. And suddenly I have cathedrals, banks and universities to build.

No Middle Age wonders, aside from Newton's university. This is the big drawback to the isolationst great library strategy. Persia has all the good ones in one city, but taking and holding it will be a little tricky since Persia has huge culture.

On the plus side, I suddenly have a huge tech lead over Egypt and can now pants them with cavalry in short order, and should be the first one to the ToE. Game over.

[swagled]

Does the Great Library work if you're still living in isolation? That wouldn't make any logical sense if it does, and you've never spoken squat to anyone. (Although, it would be quite useful!)