The importance of the Medievil Wonders

[Arrian]

Ok, first a link to my "Ultimate Power" thread. Scroll down about 2/3 or 3/4 of the way on page 1, and I posted a minimap with the Palace/FP circled. They were 5 cities apart, though very late in the game I moved the Palace 1 city closer.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=54661

-Arrian

[Arrian]

And now a link to the FP+Palace placement thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59349&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

Some great stuff from Catt on page 1. My stuff is on page 2 - two different examples (a Roman game and the aforementioned Egyptian game), but for some reason page 2 appears to be messed up. I get "UUUUUUUUU" when I try to go to it.

-Arrian

[joncnunn]

Most important Middle Age Wonder : The Forbiden Palace. (Yes, it can technically be built in the Ancient Era, but it's rare to complete then) Just be sure to build it in the proper location, which is a thread in itself.

If your playing an agressive war mongler and your NOT militristic, you'll want Sun Tzus for free baracks. If you are militersteric, then you'll prefer Leos for upgrading your troops at half cost.

Builder players will prefer Sistine Chapel, especally if Religious and haven't had the Golden Age yet.

War Monglers usually pick as their second middle age wonder J.S. Bach because it doesn't require building Catherdrials to work. Builder players get J.S. Bach when they are beat up to Sistine Chapel and need to switch.

----
These Middle age wonders don't compete with the others, except that an AI beat out to all of the above may switch to these mid stream and build them quickly.

Coperacous. Ideal location is the Collosus.

Newton's is usually a backup plan in case your beat out to Coperacous or Adams Smith. Are if playing a Scientific civ, don't have a Scientific GW yet and haven't had the GA yet, you'll prefer this one.

The larger your empire, the more you'll apreciate Adams Smith.

Magellan's Voyage usefullness depends more upon the map than your playing style. This is also a Commerical & Expansionst, so it can trigure England's GA all by itself.

Shakesphere's Theatre is technically a Middle Age Wonder, but because it's a dead end tech, it's often built in the Industrial Era. I've even built it after Hoover Dam once.

See the threads on corrpution and waste and how to reduce them on ways to speed up building wonders in the middle ages.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by BRC
I do both, and to a very high degree. Help!

I see it like this: if you're going to go to war, then your whole civ might as well go to war. This means that most (at the very least 80%) of your productive cities should be helping out in the war effort. Large campaigns are more successful if you have a lot of units. Wonders facilitate this, but trying to get all the Wonders while fighting off enemy civs is a bit much. Like I said, if you're doing so successfully, you're either having an amazing game or you belong at Emperor (skill-wise).

Originally posted by BRC
I forgot to mention: I have been able to break the AI's cascade each game when they would build the Great Library, and then I would take SunTzu and Sistine within a few turns of each other. Then the others would be easy with pre-builds. I feel that the researching has gotten me there just quick enough to do this.

I don't have much experience with breaking cascades, so I can't help you here.

Originally posted by BRC
I usually have my FP/Palace setup in place by banking. Is this too late?

If you've got a good spot before then, then it's definitely too late. One of the main reasons I like to be aggressive in the Ancient age is to set up a nice area for my FP (and hopefully generate a Leader to rush it in the process). If I don't have my FP in place by, say, Education, I will put all my efforts into doing so ASAP. Things are just so much easier when the FP comes online...

Originally posted by BRC
So you leave no units at home? Maybe a small mobile force? Never left a majority of my cities undefended. (Never been attacked on my land either, though)

I think your parenthetical remark answers your general question. If I do leave defensive units in my core cities, it is only to deal with unhappiness (assuming I'm in Monarchy). Excess Warriors do this job nicely (I personally don't like Medieval Infantry...they get trumped by Knights too easily).

Originally posted by BRC
Gotta have improvements too. Sets up the late game, in my opinion. Of course, knights do too.

I think this is the main difference in our game philosophies: you want good cities, I want a lot of cities. I believe that more cities and land area sets up the late game more efficiently than fewer, more productive cities. There is plenty of time in the Industrial age (with the help of Factories) to get your cities up and running.

Originally posted by BRC
Are the shields that are spent on Wonders during the middle ages really more effective than building knights? or improvements? This I do not know the answer to.

All other things being equal, I'll take Wonder's shield cost in Knights any day (Veterans, preferably). "All other things" are usually not equal though, which explains why I do build a few Wonders every game. 'Actors' (units) are better than 'facilitators' (improvements and Wonders). The cool thing about Civ3 is that, with Culture, some faciliators are actually actors too.


Have fun playing, and try stepping up to Emperor: you'll see where a lot of my comments are coming from. Not that Monarch is "easy", but you have a lot more options (i.e. Wonder building) at that level than at Emperor or Deity.


Dominae

[Catt]

Good thread. You can do without wonders (and they don't win the game) but as Dominae said, they make it more fun.

I won't add my views to the chorus on everything, but I did want to chime in to say that I think Adam Smith's is an under-rated wonder, at least on standard or larger maps. Especially with PTW and the addition of stock exchanges, Smith's can be a monster gold "producer" ("a penny saved is a penny earned") that can really help with the dramatic jump in tech costs from the Middle to the Industrial Ages. By the time you hit the "Industrial Corridor" as Theseus named it, Smith's might very well be "producing" 100+ gold per turn for your civ. And the savings continue (and usually grow) until the end of the game! Happily, I find that it is usually pretty easy to get, even if several AIs have a decent tech lead on you (assuming you haven't absolutely beelined along the southern tech branch all the way to MT and the AI tech lead isn't rather large).

Catt

[Jawa Jocky]

Smith also covers commerical docks (i think). Very under rated indeed.

When I'm in a warring mood I find the Sun+Leo combo to be most helpfull. Even your newly acquired cities can heal quickly and upgrade. The quick turn around really helps to keep the pressure on.

[BRC]

Ok, first a link to my "Ultimate Power" thread.

My bible. I know this thread inside out. Made me realize why war is necessary. LEADERS.

Some great stuff from Catt on page 1. My stuff is on page 2 - two different examples (a Roman game and the aforementioned Egyptian game), but for some reason page 2 appears to be messed up. I get "UUUUUUUUU" when I try to go to it.

I tried it a couple of times. I got UUUUUU and then finally it worked. Who knows? Good stuff here. Lately, I have been building the FP nearby and rushing the palace later.

Jon: Thanks for input. I think Shakespeare's is next to worthless.

I see it like this: if you're going to go to war, then your whole civ might as well go to war. This means that most (at the very least 80%) of your productive cities should be helping out in the war effort.

Just a question: Does your culture suffer because of the concentration on military? I have heard the horror stories on flipping.

One of the main reasons I like to be aggressive in the Ancient age is to set up a nice area for my FP (and hopefully generate a Leader to rush it in the process).

Would you intentionally send a settler/spearman out away from your core in the early game to lay claim to your FP location? Would you then rush temple and courthouse, or is this unreasonable?

If I do leave defensive units in my core cities, it is only to deal with unhappiness (assuming I'm in Monarchy).

Do the AI's threaten these cities since they're undefended? Do you keep units in coastal cities?

I believe that more cities and land area sets up the late game more efficiently than fewer, more productive cities.

I usually have lots of land in my boundaries, but I do not overlap much at all. I realize that the early game would be better with closer spacing, but I tell myself that the late game is better with 21-tile spacing.

'Actors' (units) are better than 'facilitators' (improvements and Wonders). The cool thing about Civ3 is that, with Culture, some faciliators are actually actors too.

Yeah. This is where the lines get blurred. I need to realize when to stop building for the future and start knocking some heads.

Have fun playing, and try stepping up to Emperor: you'll see where a lot of my comments are coming from. Not that Monarch is "easy", but you have a lot more options (i.e. Wonder building) at that level than at Emperor or Deity.

I hate the idea of digging myself out of a hole, but that time is coming. I have been prone to quit some games after entering the Industrial Ages, mostly because the game will be mine.

I think Adam Smith's is an under-rated wonder, at least on standard or larger maps.

Thanks for your input. I haven't yet determined how useful Smith's is. Is it more useful than Copurnicus and Newton's University in the same city (financially speaking)?

By the time you hit the "Industrial Corridor" as Theseus named it, Smith's might very well be "producing" 100+ gold per turn for your civ.

It probably would be for my civ. I like having all the improvements. I'll work on grabbing this one and ignoring some of the others. Thanks Catt.

When I'm in a warring mood I find the Sun+Leo combo to be most helpfull. Even your newly acquired cities can heal quickly and upgrade.

I agree. The only thing is that SunTzu's effects can be replicated (to a point). Are the shields spent on SunTzu better spent on Knights? (This is an everlasting problem for me)

Thank you

[Jawa Jocky]

Originally posted by BRC

Are the shields spent on SunTzu better spent on Knights? (This is an everlasting problem for me)

Thank you

It takes shields to build barracks too. If you like barracks in ever city (I do because I get lazy later on and don't want to have to move units to upgrade them) and your not Mil. than that is a lot of shields {not to mention the gold for the upkeep}.

Who am I kidding Sun is a Convenience Wonder for the Lazy (like me).

[Dominae]

Originally posted by BRC
Just a question: Does your culture suffer because of the concentration on military? I have heard the horror stories on flipping.

Yes, my culture does suffer. A disdain for culture means that you'll have to expect flips, at least one or two per major campaign. There are ways to minimize the effect though, such as leaving little to no units inside capture cities and starving them. However, I'm becoming more and more convinced of the usefulness of early culture, especially from Temples.

Originally posted by BRC
Would you intentionally send a settler/spearman out away from your core in the early game to lay claim to your FP location? Would you then rush temple and courthouse, or is this unreasonable?

That's a strategy I've used once in a while (like Arrian's "alternate universe" game I'm playing right now). If you're going to do this, however, make sure you're planning on claiming the land around your FP city too. An FP city isn't optimal if its alone, and can still flip if surrounded by a high-culture civ.

Originally posted by BRC
Do the AI's threaten these cities since they're undefended? Do you keep units in coastal cities?

Yes and yes. The AI isn't completely stupid about undefended cities, mind you. If you've got an empty city 20 tiles away, it probably won't beeline to conquer it. The exception to this is units in boats, with which the AI will sail halfway around the world to "surprise" your empty cities. Fun to watch, actually!

Originally posted by BRC
I usually have lots of land in my boundaries, but I do not overlap much at all. I realize that the early game would be better with closer spacing, but I tell myself that the late game is better with 21-tile spacing.

I prefer a balance of the two. Cities in the late-game won't suffer two much if they're missing 2 workable tiles, and as you mentioned, closer spacing early means you have a better chance of ever reaching the late-game.

Originally posted by BRC
Yeah. This is where the lines get blurred. I need to realize when to stop building for the future and start knocking some heads.

Soon you will turn to the dark side...

Originally posted by BRC
The only thing is that SunTzu's effects can be replicated (to a point). Are the shields spent on SunTzu better spent on Knights? (This is an everlasting problem for me)

I don't like Sun Tzu's because by the time the Medieval era comes around, all the cities that I want producing military units already have Barracks. Thus the extra Barracks are used solely for healing troops, mainly in newly-conquered cities. This is a nice effect to have, but certainly not a necessity. However, if you're planning on picking fights in the Medieval (rather than Ancient age), Sun Tzu's is well worth its cost in Shields.


Dominae

[joncnunn]

The real reason for building Shakesphere's is the amount of Culture it produces, especally if you've either had very few cities throughout the game up to that point.

Adams Smith is one of the few wonders that got improved in Civ III vs Civ II. In PTW, with Stock Exchanges, it's worth even more.

Adams Smith savings is independant of amount of money going into science. Instead it always saves all maintenance costs of commercial buildings you have.

Pre-flight, the most powerful science city would be one with Colosus + Coperacous + Issac Newtons with a University. With the Colosus the same city should also have a Stock Exchange. It's exact value is still dependant upon your science rate.

The more cities you have the more likely it is that Adams Smith is worth more in gold than the above city.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Adams Smith is one of the few wonders that got improved in Civ III vs Civ II. In PTW, with Stock Exchanges, it's worth even more.

I disagree. I found it to be more useful in Civ2, though I don't have PTW. I rarely build it (intentionally) in Civ3, while it was among my top choices in Civ2 (next, of course, to the incredibly awe-inspiring power of old Leo's).

[BRC]

It takes shields to build barracks too. If you like barracks in ever city (I do because I get lazy later on and don't want to have to move units to upgrade them) and your not Mil. than that is a lot of shields {not to mention the gold for the upkeep}.

I understand. I'm lazy too. I usually have barracks in most of my cities before SunTzu's is built though. This is why it makes the choice difficult.

Yes, my culture does suffer. A disdain for culture means that you'll have to expect flips, at least one or two per major campaign.

I guess I'll just have to get used to this happening, huh?

The AI isn't completely stupid about undefended cities, mind you. If you've got an empty city 20 tiles away, it probably won't beeline to conquer it. The exception to this is units in boats, with which the AI will sail halfway around the world to "surprise" your empty cities. Fun to watch, actually!

Do you have problems with being in near constant warfare, and therefore war weariness? I'm sure that there is a declaration of war from one side or the other when they land, right?

Soon you will turn to the dark side...

Can't wait. The only problem is that I like my people to be able to read and write at the same time. Oh well! Bash now, learn later.

However, if you're planning on picking fights in the Medieval (rather than Ancient age), Sun Tzu's is well worth its cost in Shields.

I usually mop up my continent, or come very close to it with Knights and Cavalry.

The real reason for building Shakesphere's is the amount of Culture it produces, especally if you've either had very few cities throughout the game up to that point.

I usually don't need the culture, and the 4 turn sidetrack just isn't worth it to me. Just depends on playstyle, I guess.

The more cities you have the more likely it is that Adams Smith is worth more in gold than the above city.

I'm thinking that I would be better off without the Science Wonders and Shakespeare's and Magellans. Is SunTzu, Sistine, Bach, Leonardo, and Smith too much to hope for on Emperor? Especially with their close proximity. I usually get a leader somewhere in here, too.

[joncnunn]

As I recall, in Civ II, Adams Smith paid for:

1. Temples
2. Harbors (if adjoining water)
3. Market Places
4. Libaries

For 3 or 4 gold savings per city per turn.

In Civ III, Adams Smith pays for:

1. Market Places
2. Harbors (if adjoining sea-water)
3. Banks
4. Airports (2 gold to maintaign)

For 4 or 5 gold savings per city per turn.

Originally posted by punkbass2000


I disagree. I found it to be more useful in Civ2, though I don't have PTW. I rarely build it (intentionally) in Civ3, while it was among my top choices in Civ2 (next, of course, to the incredibly awe-inspiring power of old Leo's).

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by joncnunn
As I recall, in Civ II, Adams Smith paid for:

1. Temples
2. Harbors (if adjoining water)
3. Market Places
4. Libaries

IN addition, there is at least barracks, and possibly others that I don't recall. Anything that costs 1gpt, anyway.

Also, you list bank and airport under Civ3's Smith's. However, banks only become available with economics, and airports even later. Everything from civ2's list would likely be built from the get go in the core cities. Also, a lot of cities don't need banks or airports, while just about every city could use barracks, a temple, and a library.

[Theseus]

Boy did this turn into a great thread!

Without recapping a lot of great commentary, here are my Medieval almost-must-haves:
Leo
Bach
Smith

I can definitely live without any SW or GW except the FP, but if I have those three GWs I'm gonna rock.