Cannons and my MOD

[player1]

There is one idea that poped in my head, but I don't know is it good, nor should it be added in my MOD. So I need some comments.

It's about Cannons.

First let's compare Strenght of bombarding units.

Artillery (Bomb. 12, ROF 2, cost 80)
vs Cannons (Bomb. 8, ROF 1, cost 40):

Against defense target of 6,
Cannon takes out 0.57 HPs
Artillery takes out 1.33 HPs

Against defense target of 4,
Cannon takes out 0.67 HPs
Artillery takes out 1.5 HPs

Against defense target of 10,
Cannon takes out 0.44 HPs
Artillery takes out 1.09 HPs


Catapults (Bomb. 4, ROF 1, cost 20)
vs Cannons (Bomb. 8, ROF 1, cost 40):

Against defense target of 4,
Catapult takes out 0.5 HPs
Cannon takes out 0.67 HPs

Against defense target of 3,
Catapult takes out 0.57 HPs
Cannon takes out 0.73 HPs

Against defense target of 6,
Catapult takes out 0.4 HPs
Cannon takes out 0.57 HPs

.

So, at the end, Cannon is more then twice weaker then Artillery (thanks to lower ROF), plus has lower range.

Also, Cannon is NOT twice better then Catapults. Two Catapults do more HP damage then one Cannon.

.

Thus, I think about changing cost of Cannons to 30 shields (from 40 shields).

What do you think?
Would that be OK?
Balanced?
Gamebreaking?

[player1]

P.S.
This is in strategy forums, since this is NOT about creation, it's about game-balance and stretegy implications of rule changes.

[DaveMcW]

How about keeping the cost 40 shields, but boosting cannon's ROF to 2? They would be closer to artillery in pure damage, but artillery is still far superior since it can fire 2 squares.

[player1]

That's an interesting suggestion.

But it would probably make infaltion of some other units bombard strenght & ROF, like for Frigate (which on avergae deals similar damage as Cannon) or Ironclad.

That's why I was thinking about reduced cost instead.

[Jaybe]

Leave it be. Cannon strength is appropriate for the period(s). Napoleons were the basic cannon in use from the Napoleonic wars through the American Civil War (musketman through rifleman). Larger (siege) guns and mortars were used, but were not common.

Besides, if you decide to actually USE cannons then you might build a dozen or two, making artillery plentiful when it is time to upgrade.

[player1]

Originally posted by Jaybe
Leave it be. Cannon strength is appropriate for the period(s). Napoleons were the basic cannon in use from the Napoleonic wars through the American Civil War (musketman through rifleman). Larger (siege) guns and mortars were used, but were not common.

Actually, you are right. Thare power is similar to other bomb. units of that age (like Frigate).

But they are a little bit more on expesive side compared to Catapults.

I mean, TWO CATAPULTS can do more damage then one Cannon.

Not a good thing.

Originally posted by Jaybe Besides, if you decide to actually USE cannons then you might build a dozen or two, making artillery plentiful when it is time to upgrade.

Lower cost ==> higher chance that you'll use Cannons.
(and I'm not talking about keeping them just as Arty placeholders)


P.S.
Other option would be to make them with FP of 2, but with cost of 60.
Although that would make some difficulties when "converting" new Korean UU.

[Jaybe]

The other concern is that of the AI's use of them. If they cannot effectively use bombardment units, you are only making them better for YOU.

If it turns out that PtW improves the AI's use of bomb. units, OTOH, ...

[player1]

Originally posted by Jaybe
The other concern is that of the AI's use of them. If they cannot effectively use bombardment units, you are only making them better for YOU.

If it turns out that PtW improves the AI's use of bomb. units, OTOH, ...

But in that case, with original rules you can effectively use Arty (before Tanks), also you could effectively use Catapults (against Greeks if you have no Iron).

But Cannons?
They are pretty much unneded exept as Arty "placeholders".

Since making them stronger (like higher ROF) could be unbalancing, I was thinking about just decreasing cost to 30 shields.

That way you could make in average several Cannons more (and AI too if he prefers that stretegy), but not some spectacular powerfull unit.

P.S.
By the way, in my MOD, I have Radar Arty with movment of 2.
(should not be unbalancing since Bombers have greater range)

[Nor Me]

A cost of 30 for the cannon shouldn't be unbalancing. As these tend to hang around and only be useful in large numbers, the upkeep would be the limiting factor anyway. If this is the only change you consider balanced, you should certainly include it in the MOD(?).

I would give cannons a bombard strengh of 11 and leave its cost and ROF unchanged.
This would make it over twice as good as the catapult only against a rifleman fortified in a metropolis on a hill (I think) and almost half as good as an artillery.

Since this can only do 1hp of damage it should not be too unbalancing.
Increasing the ROF might be unbalancing on its own. If you do this and decrease its bombard strengh or increase its cost, you would also decrease its effectiveness at defence (The usual fate of AI artillery!)
As for the comparison with the frigate, I don't buy it. The choice is rarely an issue so they can easily be balanced seperately.

The Hwacha may need a RF of 2, despite historical considerations, if it is to be on a level with the Patch Suggestion F15 (genuinely annoying to play against.)
P. S. As for the Radar artillery, I would prefer a 0/0/2 21.2.1 with blitz...(continued on another forum)

[Harovan]

I almost never build cannons, because they cause such a little damage. 30g may be a better price, but I probably wouldn't build them for this price too, because they are utterly useless. I would prefer if you leave the cost at 40g and make them (and catapults too) more powerful instead. What about a bombardement of 10 or even 12 (ROF 1), or bombardement of 6 and ROF 2?

[vmxa1]

I agree, cannons are not very useful. I only make them for coastal def, if I do not have any shipping on hand. I then have to cross my fingers and hope for a rare hit.

[Inverse Icarus]

catapuls cant go on jungles or mountains (can cannons)?

[player1]

There are meny options for rules changes (like 6 - ROF2), but it's really difficult to find a proper one.

And I also want to make simple conversion of Korean UU when it comes out.

So I guess I'll just make them cheaper.

I first thought to do them as Bom6/ROF2/Cost40, but somehow it just bothered me to have Destoyer and Cannons with equal bombard ratings (it was maybe more a flavor thing for me). And it maks them weaker when defensing a city.

Theoreticly with 8/1/30 they would get similar bombard cost-effeciuvenes as Arty, but with lower range.
You would just need to make more of them.

Anyway, there is another problem with those units, which is not just firepower related.
You get them in time when you can use very powerfull Cavarly, so you realy don't need them in attack (maybe only in defense).
On the other hand you get Arty in times of Infatry, so you need them to soften up enemy defenses (before Tanks).
But this thing can't be solved without making all attacking units much more weaker (and I won't do that).

.

P.S.
As for Korean UU stats, remeber that they have same cost as Cannons.
So with original PtW rules, you could build two those units for price of one 1 artillery and practicly get same firepower (2 Hwachas = 1Arty)
And it's even better, if you reduce cost of Cannons (and thus, cost of Hwacha too).

Already good, if you ask me.

P.S.
Anyway, as I remeber Hwacha has also some other benefit exept Bom. str. of 12 too.
Is it no need for some resource, or cheaper cost?
(I realt don't remember)

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by UberKruX
catapuls cant go on jungles or mountains (can cannons)?

No, cannons can't either, unless there are connecting roads. They are also wheeled (artillery are not).

(But in MY mod, tanks, panzers, MI & MA are also wheeled...)

[player1]

Originally posted by Jaybe

No, cannons can't either, unless there are connecting roads. They are also wheeled (artillery are not).

(But in MY mod, tanks, panzers, MI & MA are also wheeled...)

This includes my MOD too.
And Arty and RA.