Ideas to use Communism to Adv.

[bbaws]

Yes, soap production at an all time high.

[punkbass2000]

Communism simply shouldn't be on the list. It is not a form of government. Ideally, one should be able to choose an economic form as well as a political form, but Civ isn't SMAC. BTW, vmxa, I'm going to have to disagree with your claim that communism is 'really' the weakest, given that it's never been tried.

[Alinestra Covelia]

I agree. Communist states are first and foremost identified by their economic structure. Police States politics are not an intended rulership method for a Communism - at least not in theory. Once you get into the idea of a paternalistic ruling party that prescribes decisions for its citizens, then it can become a police state.

But a Planned economy does not necessarily make for a militaristic, police state regime - at least not in theory.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Communism simply shouldn't be on the list. It is not a form of government. Ideally, one should be able to choose an economic form as well as a political form, but Civ isn't SMAC. BTW, vmxa, I'm going to have to disagree with your claim that communism is 'really' the weakest, given that it's never been tried.

What is the basis for your disagreement? Just be contrary or do you have some data? The idea that it has not been tried, because what we have seen does not met your theory of what it should be is of no merit. I mean, you are saying it has failed because we did not have the proper people to implement it? That is a asine. We have to judge on what we have seen, not some thing we dream of. Any way no system will work that relies on one to work for the benefit of another. Many people will not even work to benefit themselves.

[CiverDan]

For people who want more governments, what would you want? In Civ 2 Fundamentalism was too unblanacing, and lets be honest, even if it wasn't removed as a government during Civ3 development, it would have been yanked before it hit the shelves for obvious reasons (the civ 2 Fanatic unit was basically a suicide terrorist unit). IMHO Civ 2 fundamentalism should have had production halved in addition to its science (since many fundamentalist governments only allow half i.e. male population to be productive anyways). What Firaxis should have done is renamed it "military" with the same penalities (due to jailing diissadents/inability to manage infrastructure)

As for Communism. I've never used it and dont plan too, especially since I'm not much of a warmonger.

[Alinestra Covelia]

CiverDan - have a look at SMAC's "pick and choose" governmental palette. There, they separated out a society's structure along lines of Politics, Economy, and Values. I thought it was pretty good because you can have subtleties of government... a Militaristic Democracy that practised an ecofriendly Green economy, for example. Reflects somewhat more accurately on the wide variety of governments out there in the real world!

As for Fundamentalism in Civ2, don't forget that a Fundamentalist state's max Science production will actually only be 40%, not 50%, since Fundamentalism only allows the slider to be set at 80% max.

If you've never used Communism, perhaps that's an indication that it deserves some redesigning?

[BillChin]

Originally posted by bbaws
IIRC communism is a requirement for espionage and , um, police stations. I wouldn't say it was optional. The branch ends in a dead end but reduced corruption and the ability to spy are fairly critical IMHO.

Police stations are useful, however, they are primarily for large to huge empires. For a medium sized empire, court houses are often enough. In a competitive game, the time to research the optional tech and build police stations is a major detour that may lose the game while other players are bulding units or other improvements. In any case, that player will not consider switching governments to Communism and that is why I push for a major upgrade.

Espionage is a separate optional tech. Communism makes spies more effective, but they have no gold to conduct missions so the spy bonus is close to useless.

I can see very few circumstances where Communism will be the government of choice in a competitive multiplayer game. For this reason it needs a major upgrade. Similar for Democracy, though there are a handful of times (faster workers) where it may be useful for Religious civs. I propose a major upgrade for Communism (ten free units, doubled unit support 4/8/16 and free maintenance on all buildings), and a minor upgrade for Democracy (0/1/2 unit support).
- Bill

[WarpStorm]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
If you've never used Communism, perhaps that's an indication that it deserves some redesigning?

If you've never actually used a government to see for yourself how it works for you, how are you qualified to say whether of not it needs redesigning?

I'm not going to get into an argument with Bill and company on the merits (or lack thereof) of Communism in Civ3 (we differ and I imagine that won't change).

All I'll say is don't go on hearsay and expert opinions. Try it and see for yourself if you can fit it into your plans. I can on occasion find good use for it.

[realpolitic]

Communism is so bad that I stay in Republic. I fight oscillating wars, so that it takes a long time for WW to build enough to nesseciatate the change, and then only if I can halve the size of any technological competitors.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by vmxa1

What is the basis for your disagreement? Just be contrary or do you have some data?

I'm not sure what you mean by data, but I can tell you with complete certainty that there has not been anything resembling communism since people lived in small clans.

The idea that it has not been tried, because what we have seen does not met your theory of what it should be is of no merit.

It's not just my theory, it is the theory of communism.

I mean, you are saying it has failed because we did not have the proper people to implement it?

No, I'm saying Stalin took over and ruined the country. That is simply not communism.

That is a asine. We have to judge on what we have seen, not some thing we dream of.

True. And we haven't seen it.

I would argue that capitalism does not work, at least it doesn't work for very many people. Not to mention that capitalism and democracy cannot exist within the same society.

[Arrian]

I get the tech because I always want police stations. Both for the corruption fighting help, and the WW reduction, since I intend to remain a democracy even while fighting aggressive wars. I like having my cake and eating it too.

-Arrian

[vmxa1]

I think the whole point is that there is no utopia and nothing will work for everyone. That is why I prefer the least amount of government as possible as failure and success should not be determined by the government.
BTW communism before Stalin did not meet with any definition of success I would recognize.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by vmxa1
I think the whole point is that there is no utopia and nothing will work for everyone. That is why I prefer the least amount of government as possible as failure and success should not be determined by the government.
BTW communism before Stalin did not meet with any definition of success I would recognize.

What communism?

[bbaws]

Communism is only as useless as your empire was before you switched to it. If you've built a goodly number of police staions as well as courthouses all round and nursed your WLTKDs you get the same corruption fighting effects spread throughout your empire. This will mess things up a bit in that you might have to fine tune most of your cities for efficient production. In the aftermath of a large belligerent acquisition, especially in the era of artillery, it is invaluable in restoring infrastructure. It's a good idea to get your cash reserves up before you switch but not necessary. Rather than letting population starve as they produce one shield a turn, get them producing more and build temples out of their rotting corpses.
Bill you seem to have missed the PTW section of the forum. This is the CIV3 strategy part. You see no way to use communism, fine, you reply to a post where I bothered to give an example. Here's another. If you are going to quote me then take the time to read what I have posted.

[Vlado]

Switching production

I don't know whether this is just me but if I change my government to communism I find that the production in my cities keep the "old" shieldage. This doesn't change until I change my building. Eg, if I'm building the FP and change to communism I'll still only get one shield in this highly corrupt city. The same goes for the capital, whatever I'm building I'm still going to finish this with a non-corrupt shieldage, but the next thing in que will get built with 80% production.

Is it just me or?

/Vlado