Paratroopers useless?

[XOR]

Originally posted by bbaws
Paratroops are good for managing choke points, once used them against the Indians. Stacks of 6 or so on every square around their capital on the first turn of war. Bam all their trade agreements lapsed and four border cities flipped to me without a shot fired. I could have done it with helicopters but I had to use them for something just to enjoy that glorious animation.

If that's true, their capital and your airport city must have been, at most, 5 tiles away from each other. You then dropped 6 paratrooper on each surrounding tile which means 6x8=48 paratroopers. Their cost of production is the same as the tank. With 48 tanks, their capital, their 4 border cities, and probably a few more would have been yours, that and the fact that tanks can be used to fight any battle after that, the paratroopers will probably not be usable again .

Being the 2 cities 5 tiles away means that there was a distances of at most 4 tiles between one and the other. At least one of thos 4 tiles must have been within the cultural borders of your airport city, so there must have been, at most, 3 tiles of enemy territory between your airport and their capital. Tanks can make 2 moves, so if there were no was no forest-like (the AI alway cuts it down) or mountain-like terrain in the way they could reach the city and attack it in just 2 turns, the same amount of turns it takes for a paratrooper to get there and attack (if they "attack"), plus tanks are much stronger. So reaching the attacking a position takes the same amount of time for a paratrooper that paradrops as for a tank that simply does reaches the place trough land.

[Kizami]

Tanks and other "heavy equipment" were indeed air droped in WWII but its not like they were air dropped en masse. Maybe one or two here and at most 3 or 4 there.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by vmxa1
Stacks of 6 modern unit of any kind should work for that. The issues is to me, would you rather have x paras or x mechinf?

Paratroopers... and here's why...

If you want to build Mechi Infantry, you'll need a copter for each unit, which takes time and increases your unit support costs needlessly.

Paratroopers are an all in 1 deal, so you can build as many as you want.

[vmxa1]

I got lost here. What do I need choppers for again? Paras can only go a short distance for the air drop and then they are any other ground unit, but weaker than all of the ones they will be fighting (MA and MechInf). I have not made a helo since Civ2. If the city was on another land mass, I will need transports, but so will paras.

[Theseus]

Correct me if wrong, but vxma1 is saying: hell with the fancy footwork, just wade in there.

I'm hard put to disagree.

[Thrawn05]

Personally, I would just use mech infantry. Because for me the bottom line is that you have a weak unit that can fly and a strong unit that can't... so don't bother with the flying.

[XOR]

Originally posted by Thrawn05



Paratroopers... and here's why...

If you want to build Mechi Infantry, you'll need a copter for each unit, which takes time and increases your unit support costs needlessly.

Paratroopers are an all in 1 deal, so you can build as many as you want.

1- Mech Inf can get there by road, and does not need to have an airport so bloody close.

2- Helicopters cant transport Mech Inf.

3- Helicopters can drop infantry FROM ANY CITY. And infantry is cheaper than paratroopers, so if you have 10 helicopters you can drop FROM ANY CITY 10 infantry per turn, they can also be used as trans-oceanic airlift (which is a bit silly but WTF). All that without the contruction and support cost of having to have airports everywhere.

[Thrawn05]

Originally posted by XOR


1- Mech Inf can get there by road, and does not need to have an airport so bloody close.

2- Helicopters cant transport Mech Inf.

3- Helicopters can drop infantry FROM ANY CITY. And infantry is cheaper than paratroopers, so if you have 10 helicopters you can drop FROM ANY CITY 10 infantry per turn, they can also be used as trans-oceanic airlift (which is a bit silly but WTF). All that without the contruction and support cost of having to have airports everywhere.

2: Goes to show that I don't use copters.

3: I still wouldn't bother. If I can't there by road... transport them.

[vmxa1]

The only other method I have used is to transport a large force to another large landmass and grab or built a city. Then rush an airport, now I can drop in from all my airports.

[Jawa Jocky]

PTW will have airfields. That might help.

[Barchan]

Firstly, for Thrawn05: Krankor! Brilliant, man! "Now I have you, Prince of Space! Haaah, haaah, haaaaaah!"

Secondly, for everyone else: I think that the sad values for the Paratrooper unit are unfortunately one of the most realistic in the game. I've got nothing against Paras IRL, and think that pound for pound they're some of the best-trained and most effective units out there. But that's the key: pound for pound. As others have pointed out, by their very nature Para units travel light. They cannot bring a lot of ammunition or heavy weapons and are thus no match for a head-on fight with traditional "heavy" units with a lot of armor or artillery. It's true that some armor and vehicles can be airdropped (and were, on occasion, in WWII), but we're talking a few here and there, not anything to tackle a ground-deployed armored division.

The one thing that allows Para units to "punch above their weight" is the element of surprise. Being able to drop behind or in the midst of the enemy gives Para units the chance to attack before defensive preparations can be made, which makes the Para units stronger by comparison. However, once the element of surprise is lost, Para units are just ordinary light infantry units. Well trained light infantry units, perhaps, but light infantry units nonetheless.

So, my suggestion (knowing it won't be implemented...) would be to double the attack strength of Paratrooper units on the turn they drop. I think the same benefit could be successfully argued for Marines whenever they make an amphibious assault. However, once the initial airdrop or amphibious attack is done, the normal values apply for any subsequent non-airdrop or non-amphibious attack.

This would have the added "realistic" effect of wanting to get your Paratroopers and Marines the hell out of combat and back to friendly territory ASAP for R&R (replacements and repair for casualties, rest and relaxation for the veterans) so you can use their special abilities to maximum effect. After all, if you've got Paratroopers marching to the front with the rest of the "legs" you're just wasting all that training.

[shigamoto]

Well they are not good at attacking. However combined with forces that are stronger for example modern armor or well something stronger.

They can also be used for recon. Another tactic is if you are attacking a city from only one direction you can insert paratroopers to cut of the other side of the city.

But they are not suitable for direct attacks as said before...

[vulture]

Originally posted by Barchan

So, my suggestion (knowing it won't be implemented...) would be to double the attack strength of Paratrooper units on the turn they drop. I think the same benefit could be successfully argued for Marines whenever they make an amphibious assault. However, once the initial airdrop or amphibious attack is done, the normal values apply for any subsequent non-airdrop or non-amphibious attack.

Presumably you'd argue for allowing paratroopers to move/attack following the drop on the same turn then (which they really ought to do IMHO). Or, given the scale of each square on the map, allow them to paradrop into an enemy occupied square, which implicitly allows them to land, regroup and launch a surprise attack (or possibly get shot out of the air).

Sadly it can't be done with the editor AFAIK, and Firaxis aren't about to make that kind of change to the game this late in the day.

[Barchan]

Originally posted by vulture
Presumably you'd argue for allowing paratroopers to move/attack following the drop on the same turn then (which they really ought to do IMHO). Or, given the scale of each square on the map, allow them to paradrop into an enemy occupied square, which implicitly allows them to land, regroup and launch a surprise attack (or possibly get shot out of the air).

Exactly. I'd prefer the drop right on 'em approach (I know, you rarely want to actually drop *right* onto the enemy, but for scale and simplicity reasons, it'd be a better game approach). If they don't drop on an enemy, they lose their attack bonus. If they dropped onto an unoccupied, non-city square, I'd allow them to pillage after landing as well.

Originally posted by vulture Sadly it can't be done with the editor AFAIK, and Firaxis aren't about to make that kind of change to the game this late in the day.

Precisely why I said it wouldn't be implemented. Still, it's nice to daydream about it....

[Panag]

Originally posted by vulture


Presumably you'd argue for allowing paratroopers to move/attack following the drop on the same turn then (which they really ought to do IMHO). Or, given the scale of each square on the map, allow them to paradrop into an enemy occupied square, which implicitly allows them to land, regroup and launch a surprise attack (or possibly get shot out of the air).

Sadly it can't be done with the editor AFAIK, and Firaxis aren't about to make that kind of change to the game this late in the day.

hi ,

give them two movement points and they can move the same turn as they dropped , ....

have a nice day