Courthouses - when do you build them?

[Arrian]

Publius,

Theseus and I don't play scientific civs much (or am I wrong about that one, Theseus?).

I agree with you, the marketplace is for WLTKD. I would build the courthouse first in almost every instance, though. Then, coupled with WLTKD, you may have a semi-productive town, even 1/2way around the world.

Your handle wouldn't happen to be a Publius Varrus reference would it (total shot in the dark by me here)?

-Arrian

[Lord Merciless]

Marketplace is indeed very useful, as the WLTK day itself reduces the corruption by quite a bit. If you can achieve a WLTK day by building the Marketplace, then you should build it before the Courthouse. In addition to the WLTK effect, Marketplace also increases the tax revenue by 50% AFTER Corruption is subtracted.

[Theseus]

Arrian's right, I don;t play scientific civs much.

I'm much, much more focused on happiness, 2nd-level territory expansion, production, and cash. So, temples, marketplaces (& luxuries, and courthouses are all high priority builds, along with harbors / airports for cities on other continents.

Food and research are last on the list.

[Nakar Gabab]

Could someone direct me to the thread where Vel made the case for marketplace prioritization? I read it here and in a few other threads, but I can't seem to find the original statement...

[Harm]

I'm a temple man myself, courthouses come into play in my games pretty late. Often after I'm midway through the Middle Ages.

Most of the time I have offensive and defensive units as a higher priority than a courthouse, though I can definitely see a good reason to build them.

[dawidge]

Originally posted by Nakar Gabab
Could someone direct me to the thread where Vel made the case for marketplace prioritization? I read it here and in a few other threads, but I can't seem to find the original statement...

It's in the "I can't keep up w/the Jones'" thread from a few weeks ago.

This link will take you right to Vel's post

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1097906

[edit: fixed the thread name and the search highlighting]

[DrFell]

I don't build many courthouses very often, but when I do, I usually place them in the further out core cities to minimize corruption so my markets and libraries are able to generate as much revenue as possible. Often around my core I have a large number of 'junk cities' with no real improvements but perhaps barracks and a couple culture improvements in them (and markets if I want to use them as drafting centres). These cities work as buffers to hold off attacks and also help claim any luxuries/resources they cover. They're also good to rush units in if you get caught up in a short war, but virtually none of these cities get courthouses as the expense is not worth the gain.

Of course there are situations where I'd build courthouses much earlier on, but these are rarer. In fact I often find myself building no improvements at all bar the Forbidden Palace and barracks in the ancient and medieval ages, so the gain of building a courthouse would again be wasted.

As for temples, I hate having to build them, they're only really good for the culture unless you're in republic and stuggling to keep your cities happy, or of course if you happen to be a religious civ. As I often have control of several luxuries by the time temples become a viable build option, I find myself focusing on marketplaces to keep the populace happy, and libraries to expand the borders. Both have more tangible benefits than temples (only one content citizen, ugh...). Give me +50% tax revenue or +50% science any day. Temples can wait until the cities start getting really big.

[nbarclay]

I'm VERY production-oriented in 4X games, Civ 3 included. My basic premise is that if I build a production improvement and then something else, I save shields compared with building something else and then the production improvement. Those extra shields mean that for the rest of the game (at least until I run out of things I want to build), completion times are a bit ahead.

When courthouses first become available, they tend to be priority one in any city with significant corruption (with the cutoff probably somewhere around a third, although I don't have a fixed formula). At that point, I'm still a long way away from having Currency or Construction, so they don't have to compete with marketplaces and aqueducts. (If I'm playing a religious civ, while I'm still in Despotism, I'll probably pop rush a temple first if the city is far away. After all, pop rushing works just as well whether the city has the courthouse to boost its production or not.) And almost all my cities get courthouses sooner or later.

By the time other improvements that can affect production (either directly or by their effect on population and happiness) start to seriously compete with courthouses for my attention, the only cities left where I want courthouses and don't have them are generally far enough out to really NEED them. I might rush build a cultural improvement if I think a flip might be at stake, but otherwise, the courthouse is job one unless the city is completely hopeless. (Note that by that point, I'm almost always a Republic.)

Nathan

[Catt]

Originally posted by nbarclay
I'm VERY production-oriented in 4X games . . . .

Okay, I'll bite. I've seen the shorthand phrase "4x games" several times over the last few days. What attributes make a game a "4x game"?

Thanks,

Catt

[Arrian]

Originally posted by dawidge

It's in the "I can't keep up w/the Jones'" thread from a few weeks ago.

This link will take you right to Vel's post

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1097906

How did I manage to miss that thread? Anyway, despite the fact that I wholeheartedly agree with Vel about the power of marketplaces, I don't do the beeline he does (math -> currency). I do switch just about every city over to markeplaces once I get currency, though. I have noticed recently the value the AI puts on mathematics. This is a new discovery for me, and is confirmed by Vel's experience.

I suppose the reason I don't beeline for currency is that I'm either a) concentrating on beating the snot out of the AI, which means hording gold for chariot & warrior upgrades, while expecting to beat tech out of the AI or b) building the GL, which means I need literature. It's an interesting idea, though, especially if you're playing a commercial civ (start with alphabet).

-Arrian

4x...

Exploration
Expansion
Exploitation (?)
?

[Kloreep]

...Extermination, IIRC.

I build Courthouses ASAP in any city losing three or four shields and/or commerce. I usually wait quite a bit in my core cities, though; usually until well into the midieval era.

[alva]

eXtortion?

[Jaybe]

Originally posted by Catt
Okay, I'll bite. I've seen the shorthand phrase "4x games" several times over the last few days. What attributes make a game a "4x game"?

Thanks,

Catt

Per the civ3-general-abbreviations, abbreviations thread:

4X: eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate (Civ is, of course, the mother of all 4X games)

(just so it's all in one place)

[thorpey]

Damn... and here was me thinking 4X was a beer...

[Catt]

Originally posted by Jaybe

Per the civ3-general-abbreviations, abbreviations thread:

4X: eXplore, eXpand, eXploit, eXterminate (Civ is, of course, the mother of all 4X games)

(just so it's all in one place)

Damn. I even scanned that thread quickly (but didn't use the "find" command). Thanks .

Catt