June Tournament Results and Spoilers

[nbarclay]

As usual, please don't read this thread until you've explored enough to know essentially the entire map.

[nbarclay]

This post describes my strategy and game events thus far. Don't read it unless you want to know!


As host of this game, I had an extra starting consideration that other players don't: determining whether or not the map was worth playing as a tournament. I'd already discarded one game because there was no two-food land terrain within sight of the starting position, a couple others because there were at least two other civs on the starting land mass and that went against the island spirit of the game, and one because the starting positions were too cramped together (plus an important strategic resource was only available on "enemy" lands, at least in the early game).

I built Thebes just southwest of the starting position (so I could start taking advantage of the cattle immediately), and then started preparing to do my favorite thing in the whole world to do with such a city: create a settler pump. Since I couldn't count on getting Pottey from someone else, I set research to max short of losing money to get it myself. Once my initial warrior was under way to see if the map was a "keeper," I started on a barracks as a prebuild. When I discovered Pottery, I switched over to a grainary and started cranking out settlers. Eventually, I settled everything worth settling south of the chokepoint.

The problem was, I had essentially no military (largely because Thebes was too busy working on the Great Lighthouse), and two Roman units trapped on my lands decided they wanted to start a war. I lost one newly founded city (which wasn't worth much in any case). But Rome had trapped one of my warriors behind their lines, and I was able to retaliate by capturing a passing settler unit. (Fortunately, my warrior outfought theirs.)

Shortly after, I barely fought off an attack on Elephantine, my silk city. But once my numerous barracks started churning out archers and Thebes finished its Lighthouse and joined the fun, I quickly gained the upper hand. I bypassed a small town and took Rome itself, but then made peace when a Roman counterattack threatened to prove costly. (Besides, I wanted Bronze Working and the Wheel, both of which I'd bypassed beelining for mapmaking and then working toward Republic, and Rome was quite pleased to give them to me given the alternative.)

A long period of peace and prosperity followed, during which time I explored most of the world. But eventually, I reached a point where the Egyptian Republic (founded in 90 BC) was ready to fight another war. I used galleys to ferry numerous war chariots to the city of Rome. In 280 AD, the war and Egypt's Golden Age were on. In the end, peace negotiations left Rome with only a single city.

With a golden age still underway and war chariots still relatively high-tech (I was the only one in the medieval era), I decided to make Japan my next target. I posted the game for others to play about the time I made my first landings on Japanese soil. At the time, the euphoria of a golden age was making me feel invincible.

Japan fell fairly quickly, albeit with more losses on my side than I would have liked. (I did leave them with one distant island city.) But by then, my golden age was over and research had slowed down a lot. China was much bigger and better armed than Japan had been, and trying to take on the Chinese with ancient units didn't seem like such a great idea. (By the way, Rome committed suicide during the Japanese war by attacking and destroying one of the cities it had surrendered as a price of peace. After the attack, some war chariots decided they wanted a vacation in Neapolis before proceding to the front lines of the real war. )

I got Chivalry, but the price of upgrading war chariots to knights is absolutely horrendous. And I had twenty of the things! All of a sudden, Leonardo's Workshop started looking really, REALLY good!

A bit later, when I saw that China had completed the Hanging Gardens and was working on the Great Wall (instant golden age by itself) and Sun Tsu's (a golden age in conjunction with the Hanging Gardens) I started to worry. China's military was more than a match for mine in numbers, and probably in quality as well given the obsolescence of my war chariots against China's pikemen. I juggled tiles to get Leonardo's Workshop down from twenty turns to eighteen (actually it was still a Sistine prebuild at the time), started building military units, and hoped. I got the Workshop, upgraded nineteen war chariots and a horse unit (one war chariot unit was elite) and attacked, capturing both cities China was trying to produce wonders in and two others as well. Now I own all but one city on the Chinese mainland, my new capital is Beijing thanks to Ramses (I have a Forbidden Palace keeping my original continent productive), and I still have the vast majority of my knight force. (The war went so well I stopped building knights almost right after it started, and my current "in" thing to build in the core cities is universities.) The year is now 850 AD.

So where do I go from here? When I take China's last continental city, I plan to offer peace in exchange for all of their island cities except their capital. (I dwarf their culture, and with my capital in Beijing, chances of culture flipping should be small even without garrisons.) And if China is still alive, that may keep tech prices a tad higher when the big boys try to follow me in research. Plus, I'd just as soon save the time conquering the other island cities.

Then, on to Babylon, which I've just noticed has neither iron nor horses (and has no way of getting them at present, being on their own as they are). Longbowmen could give me an interesting time, but I'm hoping there won't be enough of them to make an effective opposition.

From there, the plan is to get Astronomy, Navigation, and Military Tradition (and its prerequisites) before going after the Aztecs (who have been my closest rivals in score through much of the game, leading for a fair while). They'll almost certainly have gunpowder by then, although I may get lucky and find that they don't have saltpeter, but cavalry can mow down musketmen easily enough in any case. Then I get to see whether domination or conquest comes first. (Probably conquest, given the amount of unclaimed land and surrounding coast in the world.)

Nathan

[Jawa Jocky]

I put my second city up north and boxed Rome in. I filled the rest of the continent and build light house and colosess (spelling?). I then cracked out and upgraded about 20 swordsmen. Rome declared war and I attacked. The war went awful I lost 6 swordsmen to one spearmen on a plain. I kept losing 3 swordsmen to every enemy I took. I took one city and had to accept peace. This was the most unfair results I have personally ever seen Random bad luck, but it hurt me enough so I don't think I can make the top 10.

This is a great map and a fun challenge I'm currently busy grabbing other islands that nobody else can get too. After that I plan on building up military and seeing if I'm do for some random good luck against Rome for a change.

[nbarclay]

Well, the war with Babylon didn't go as expected at all. Knights who had decimated Chinese pikemen with fairly light losses found themselves killed and wounded in large numbers against bowmen. I ended up making peace on only slightly favorable terms after just taking two cities, and one of those - the one I really wanted for its eventual access to a luxury - culture flipped (and took four wounded knight units with it) right after the peace treaty.

I've got Navigation, and now I'm working on Chemistry on my way to Military Tradition. I'll probably resume the war in another twenty turns when my newly negotiated tech-and-luxuries-for-luxuries deals with the Aztecs and Babylonians expire, unless something throws a monkey wrench into the works. I'm also building Magellan's Voyage so I can keep my naval speed advantage when I discover Magnetism, since I seriously doubt that I'll have conquered the world before then.

By the way, China insisted on keeping two cities, not just its capital, when we negotiated peace. With a little luck, though, maybe I can culture flip the one they wouldn't give me.

Nathan

[nbarclay]

And now, the conclusion:

Babylon decided to attack me before I was ready to restart the war. All they accomplished, though, was to throw away essentially all their longbowmen. (The idiots didn't even think to escort their longbowmen with musketmen. If they did, I would have been in trouble because they had a hill outside my city to attack from.)

Then I got Military Tradition and upgraded the knights I'd been ferrying over to cavalry. Taking Babylon's continent just took a few turns after that, and then three more to get to and capture their island city to the west. The war ended in 1300.

I spent the next fifty years building tons more cavalry and galleons, and started stomping the Aztecs in 1350. Their home continent was mine in 1380, and from there, it was a race to see whether or not I could mop up the remnants before I got a domination victory. Domination won in 1405. (Actually, if the Aztecs played it right, I would have needed marines to take their last island. Three-tile islands are easy to defend until then.) My score was 4398.

Nathan

[Inverse Icarus]

i've ended up having too much fun with this game, and i didn't treat it like a tourney.

oh well, it makes for a decent modern game

[nbarclay]

Here's my saved game. Hope everyone's having fun!

Nathan

[nbarclay]

Bump. I'm starting to think there may be a limbo in between the first and second pages of threads. It eems like when this thread gets pushed off the first screen, it disappears for a while before showing up on the second.

Nathan

[watorrey]

Well... i didn't read this thread until just now. I had a really hard time with this game because i built my FP right next to Thebes with the hopes of using my second leader to move the palace later. I never got a second leader. Bummer.

I had to kill the Romans twice. They respawned on the island directly south of the main one. I used war chariots to take them out which means i got a really early GA. I needed a few horsemen as well because of the mountains. With the lighthouse, i was the only one in contact with the others and i made sure nobody else got contact with the Romans.

Most of the other islands became egyptian territory. The Aztecs decided to attack me on that little desert island after they got navigation. This lead to a long war for them with the rest of the world. I eventually took a city of thiers and razed it to make room for one of mine on thier mainland. They had a ton of culture and i didn't want thier citizens in my city. This lead to a long defensive war until i got enough troops over there to start taking over. It also whittled down thier military. The others kept making peace so i kept resigning alliances with them. Eventually most of the island was mine with one Babylonian and one Chinese city.

Immediately after that, the Babylonians attaked me. Same deal here. Kept resigning alliances to keep the world at war. My first attept at invasion failed. Four galleons full of calvalry and a couple of infantry lost to thier longbowmen. So i had to rethink the invasion plans. This time it was 4 galleons full of infantry. I razed all thier cities except Babylon and Niniveh. The Japanese got one city and the chinese got one. I also took thier colonies to the west.

Almost immediately, the Japanese declare war on the Chinese. The same time the Chinese try to demand combustion from me. So, on my turn i join in with the Japanese against the chinese. The Chinese were quite large and the Japanese wouldn't stand a chance. This happened right about the time i got tanks. I took out thier island cities and headed for the mainland. My goal was to get thier luxuries. I kept the wine, insence, and gem cities, the rest got razed. Wonders or not.

I had decided on a conquest game by this time since it was the late 1800's and i suspect others would have a much earlier domination. With the poor placement of my FP and palace, techs came slow, gold was tight, and it took a long time to build culture.

Then the same for the Japanese. I tried keeping at least one city on every island but i was so close to the domination limit, i abandoned a few of the worthless cities i had founded. Culture was also an issue by now. I sold many temples but i don't think i had to.

The die rolls in this game sucked. My elites couldn't win anything. At one point i was having better luck with cavalry against infantry instead of tanks. Later, my mech infantry was doing a better job than tanks. (Are you sure you don't have something edited?) I lost many cavalry offensivly to longbowmen. Very frustrating, especially knowing my palace was in the wrong spot. I stopped researching after computers. The Japanese were the only ones left and they didn't have battleships yet.

Anyway... it was an interesting game even if i didn't play it very well. I KNOW i could have done better with the FP placement. I would have built a new palace even if i got a leader on the last turn... hehe.

Conquest victory in 1972
Score = 3487

[watorrey]

This was the second game of late with no rivers. I think that cuts down on the science and gold because of not having the extra gold tiles next to them.

Also, no barbarians cuts down on the early research since the AI uses the gold for unit and improvement support while keeping science high.

Comments?

[Jawa Jocky]

Space Race Victory in 1982 for 2,499 points.

So my second attempt to destroy Rome was successful. It resulted in no leaders I was also a ways behind in tech. I grabbed big islands b4 the AI, but my decision to build the FP in Rome (far away) really hurt me the most I only got farther behind in tech.

I went into building mode. Fought off a huge Aztec advance, (Thanks to some expensive airport rush jobs) and bribed everyone else to attack the Aztecs. They never liked me again no matter how much I gave them. The war went on for a long time without too many cities changing hands. I was too busy building to make an invasion force.

The war end but I was only 20 turns back into democracy when Japan came knocking. I took Japan to fast for war weariness. At this point I B-lined for the SS victory.

And I believe I found an odd bug (my hall of fame recorded the victory as 2,498 points). IMHO this new bug makes the game completely un-playable
I want my $ back

[Jawa Jocky]

oh yeah, more bad luck.

1) This was my 3rd game in a row without rivers. My b-line for electronics was a waste of time (another player error).

2) I took two transports full of elites into battle with Japan. I had about 25 battles with them and still no leaders.

[watorrey]

Originally posted by Jawa Jocky
oh yeah, more bad luck.

1) This was my 3rd game in a row without rivers. My b-line for electronics was a waste of time (another player error).

2) I took two transports full of elites into battle with Japan. I had about 25 battles with them and still no leaders.

1) Actually, using the TOE to get atomic theory and electronics is the best use for it. Those are the 2 most expensive techs normally available for it. I try to have 4-6 turns between the prebuild of TOE and getting scientific method. This gives time to research 1 less expensive tech in the interim with 1 or 2 turns at 0 science.

2) lol... i dragged out my wars just to keep trying for a GL. Next time i will know to use the first for a new palace and not wait for a second. My error was in using the first for an army so i could build the heroic epic. This when i KNEW i needed to move my palace asap. I thought about trying a palace jump, but don't trust it.

[Jawa Jocky]

Originally posted by watorrey


1) Actually, using the TOE to get atomic theory and electronics is the best use for it. Those are the 2 most expensive techs normally available for it. I try to have 4-6 turns between the prebuild of TOE and getting scientific method. This gives time to research 1 less expensive tech in the interim with 1 or 2 turns at 0 science.

2) lol... i dragged out my wars just to keep trying for a GL. Next time i will know to use the first for a new palace and not wait for a second. My error was in using the first for an army so i could build the heroic epic. This when i KNEW i needed to move my palace asap. I thought about trying a palace jump, but don't trust it.

Actually I used the TOE just like you posted above. But I couldn't build Hoover because I didn't have any cities with rivers. I'm just to focused on Hoover, I foget all of the other good things that happen to you if you get to electronics first. And it would be a waste to use your free techs on other easier to get techs so I guess this really wasn't a player error on my part. I always turn around and sell atomic theory after TOE gives it to me. The AI will spend everything they have for it, thus allowing me to become the tech leader for the rest of the game.

I'm getting the impression that not getting an GL for an FP is the worst thing that can happen to you in this game. I also think there is a problem with elite units. I know what the manual says, but I honestly find that vetern units are more like to win battles and elites are more likely to die.

[nbarclay]

Sounds like the lack of rivers was a bigger deal than I'd hoped it would be. Rivers are definitely nice for science in the early stages of the game. Unfortunately, the map settings I used for this game do not tend to favor their existence, so I figured having good bonus tiles near the starting position was probably good enough.

I think I've tried the palace jump trick exactly once, and it worked as expected. Normally, I regard it as too wasteful because of all the improvements I have in my original capital. But if the FP is practically next door to the original palace and there's no great leader in sight, and if you can get an overseas city you've founded yourself big enough to match any of the core cities, it would almost certainly be worth a try. As I recall, there's some good material on how it works over at CivFanatics. My strategy with the FP was to build it in my city just south of the chokepoint where it could help corruption in the former Roman cities before I moved my palace and still keep my original core reasonably productive after I moved it. (Although as it turned out, the build was slow enough that I think I was ready to move my palace - complete with a great leader to do the job - by the time the FP was finished.)

By the way, I've never even tried to mod my copy of Civ 3. So unless someone came up with a mod that uses downloaded games to infect new game settings, we were definitely playing stock 1.21f.

Nathan