Trading with the enemy.

[Txurce]

Alkis, I see what you're getting at. I've made 3-for-1 deals, but usually with second-rate civs. The same deal with a major power may be enough to put them back in the game.

[Alkis]

So, it seems we agree

I also agree with Lucilla, sell to everyone once you have sold it (a tech) once.

[jshelr]

You can't lose the tech race once you catch on to AI habits.

If you are way behind at the close of the middle ages, you can always use trading to catch up in tech if you have a decent economy -- by which I mean middle of the pack. If you are way behind, put your research slider on zero. Don't buy from the absolute tech leader, trade with the number two or three civs. They will use the gold to chase the tech leader. You can almost always buy every three turns or so for about half price of researching yourself. That lets you catch up very quickly.

Then, as all of you mentioned, the AI will wander around or fall to fighting in the modern age. Either you have the SS turned on, so you can beat them to it, or you don't, in which case you can always beat them to modern armor and kick butt.

Once you have played a while, unless you get stuck in the occasionaly a bad geographic situation, about the only place you can lose this game is in the ancient era.

[Txurce]

Jshelr, that's why I focus on the fastest possible ancient-era start.

And probably why Theseus spends so much time focusing on armies. He's got the game licked, and is having a hell of a lot of fun.

[Theseus]

NO WAY. Thanks for the compliment, but I don;t feel that way at all. I a haven;t really shared all the details yet, cause I have a decent shot at a come-back, but in that Egyptian game I am getting whacked upside the head (which is fun actually, if I can pull out a Cinderella story).

Fast starts are key. I do think I handle the ancient era OK though; that's prolly cause the first 15-20 games, that was all I played... I'd get up to maybe Tanks and start a new one. Sort of like Planetfall's been doing, but I tried it on multiple games. For a while, I actually had a cheat sheet taped to my monitor, with all the steps to take early on (and the Civ2 things NOT to do), until I got used to it.

Probably the most important thing I've learned here on 'poly, sort of subconsciously, is that the game experience is set up to help the player win (I guess the theory is that it's more enjoyable). I want to win, sure, but I got really obsessed with Vel's concept of the metagame, and I like to think I've even extended it (a little).

The reason I've always been focused on Armies is that I learned in the Marines about concentration of force... there's nothing else like an Army in the game. And I got inspired by that screenshot Zachriel posted!

Anyway, thanks, but there's a long way to go (especially when it comes to MP!).

[Arrian]

I almost never trade tech anymore. One of my main goals is tech supremecy (not just a lead). I will sell the AI luxuries and maybe even strategic resources, and if things are going well, that will max out their economy. Since continental domination is my goal in the ancient/early medieval ages, I usually end up with multiple luxury monopolies which I can sell to the remaining AIs. If the AI would accept a decent deal, I'd trade my luxuries for whichever ones I don't have, but that's not the way it works. So I just sell them mine for gpt to drain them.

Offer I made last night to Shaka (polite): spices, dyes, ivory, wines, and horses in exchange for furs. "I doubt they would accept this proposal." When asked what they wanted... two techs, world map, 740 gold. Hah. If and when I want those furs, I will just go take them.

-Arrian

[Txurce]

Theseus, armies define concentration of force in Civ3, in the way that military strategists conventionally use it. I tend to avoid the "500 tanks for every one of theirs" ratios because they don't call for skill beyond building the units in the first place. But armies combine "concentration of force" with the elegance of "just enough" units. I just wish I would get two GLs in the early game more often, so I could practice what you preach.

Now what do you mean about the metagame? I missed many of those threads, not having had the game at the time.

Arrian, even if you do not trade techs because you want to not just win, but to crush the AI... wouldn't a 1-for-1 deal still be advantageous? What do you think about Alkis' point about the benefits to the AI of getting luxuries at a cut-rate price?

[Arrian]

1 for 1 deal? You're kidding, right? The AI will never give you a 1 for 1 deal if you're doing well.

Yeah, the AI gets luxuries on the cheap. So what? I don't mind if the AI's people are happy, so long as they're paying me for the priveledge. This has the added bonus that if they find themselves in a war against me, *poof* there goes four luxuries.

I see no disadvantage to selling luxuries. I do see disadvantages to selling tech or strategic resources.

There are exceptions. I will sell the overseas AI tech at first contact to get their world map, all their contacts and gold.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

Like Arrian, I like to be the #1 civ, and therefor don't sell techs very often, from the industrial age upward. I had a nice game at a huge map with 16 civs, which I'd like to share. It was my first game with 1.21f, Monarch level, I have mentioned it before. It's not very impressive for territorial gains, but it shows, that one can rule all AI's and have a 1st class reputation. I'm alone at my continent, because I killed the Americans and Aztecs early. I broke many treaties, but, look at my reputation in the savegame. Nobody knows about my ancient atrocities, I am everybody's buddy, all civs eagerly trade with me (which makes this post on-topic ) and even the nasty and demanding Herr Bismarck is polite to me, as are, btw, all other civs too. I wanted to go for the spaceship, I'm at least half era ahead in tech, but I won by culture about a dozen turns before the launch.

Here's a 1500AD shot:

[Txurce]

What throws me sometimes, Sir Ralph, is that I always assume that if you're going for, say, a space-race win, then wouldn't your goal be to win as soon as possible? If so, then trading with the AI will definitely get you there faster, if they trade you even one tech, or provide you with the gold to research a tech even one tuern faster than you otherwise would have. The only risk is that they beat you to it!

By the way, is that Blucher under your monicker? I know he was pretty old by Waterloo. Cool choice... but why didn't you pick the German Sun-Tzu?

And most importantly... would you know how I can open your SAV file on a Mac?

[Harovan]

Txurce,

you are right, things would go faster if the AI could compete. I should probably play more Emperor games. In this game, I also traded tech. Mostly old, medieval techs for luxuries. And IIRC I sold iron to Bismarck for low price, because he was in need. But if the AI is so poor, that I get offers like World map, 20 gold for Steam power, I lose the interest in trading. Btw, I achieved my lead researching myself (as I was alone) and I outresearched the whole bunch of 11 AIs on the big continent, so far about the AI competing.

Yes, it's Blücher in my Avatar. And the words in my footnote are, what he said to his troups on the verge of the Battle of Nations, 1813. Roughly translated, it is: "Who this evening will be neither dead nor drunken of delight, must have fought like an infamous coward", and it won close ahead of Wellingtons "Night or the Prussians must come". Who's called the German Sun Tzu? Clausewitz? Well, it would also be a good choice.

I have no idea how you can open the savegame on the Mac. You probably have to wait till 1.21f is available, which can't be so far ahead, according to the latest news.

[Txurce]

Yeah, there's no point in trading steam power for next to nothing, unless you're playing puppetmaster. And I suspect that trading rocketry to the Iroquois for 350 gpt led to them declaring war on me soon after... but it was fun, anyway.

Yep, it's Clausewitz whom I characterized as the German Sun Tzu. I was making light of Sun Tzu's rapid rise to supremacy over the last ten or twenty years in the pantheon of popular strategists. There was a day when Clausewitz was seated a few rows above him...

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Txurce
And I suspect that trading rocketry to the Iroquois for 350 gpt led to them declaring war on me soon after... but it was fun, anyway.

If you want to stay in peace, never accept trades for more than 100 gpt. If the AI gets bankrupt, because it switches governments or loses cities (or even luxuries!), it will declare war as it's the only way out. I have learned that the hard way, btw with the Iroquois too. I sold a tech for about 150 gpt and was at war soon after.

[Metaliturtle]

I found that Ghandi Perpetually bankrupts himself, he may have the largest civ on the map, but all he ever has to trade is like one lux and a map. Anybody else notice this?

I've also seen the same stuff with the Iroquois, maybe it's because they are extremely warlike.

My $0.02

[Txurce]

It is surprising how broke some successful civs are. You could argue that they are putting their gold to good use, etc, and it could be true. Does anyone know if the AI's personality settings affect behavior like this (much like the Germans being aggressive, or France friendly)?