A real reason why tech race looks like me vs World

[Hurricane]

Could you post a saved game for the Theory of Gravity deal?

Already did.

[solo]

Many thanks, Soren, for looking at the save. I overlooked the possibility of a per/turn deal expiring that turn, and this certainly explains what happened.

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis
There already is a floor for tech devaluation. It is (1 / number of active civs). However, we are considering raising it...

YESSSS!!!!

Ahem ... good idea. Anything between 25% and 50% will do. And please make it so that the actual tech cost is not dependend on the no. of active civs, but only on the no. of known civs that already have the tech. I don't like the idea that civ A destroying civ B can result in civ C suddenly discovering a tech.

BTW, the following rule would help even more: When civ A is the first to discover a tech that civ B is also researching, civ B's research costs are only lowered for the part that hasn't been done yet.

Edit: Obviously player1 suggested this rule before me.

[Hurricane]

I agree with lockstep. The easiest and probably the most stable way to decrease the AI trading would be to limit the tech devaluation, perhaps to 50%.

Also, I think tech costs should be recalculated only at the beginning of a new turn. Now, the last civ in the turn will get benefits from the others´ research and trading. Also, you always have to remember to sell a tech first to the richest civ in order to maximise your profits. This is neither realistic nor intuitive, and easily creates confusion among beginners.

A more elegant solution would be to make the devaluation grow only slowly, over a number of turns. Now you can save lots of money by waiting one round before buying a tech so that all AI players can get it first (and then pay the minimum price one round later). If the discount would compound something like 5% per round it would take 10 rounds before you´d get a 50% discount.

[Blaupanzer]

Very interested in that 1 gold for a tech request. I've not seen that from the AI in any of my games. I have had them offer 1 gold. I took this to be either an intended insult, an indication of lack of money, a sign they are studying the tech and are close, or an expression of their power/culture -- anticipating that they think they could just demand it, so why pay a lot. Asking for only one gold makes little sense. Even 1/16 of a tech cost is more than a dollar, especially when it comes to non-ancient techs.

[Arrian]

Soren,

I'm glad you are looking at raising the floor for tech devaluation.

1/number of active civs, huh? Interesting. Very interesting. Sort of a reverse effect... as civs die out, and they usually do, the floor gets higher, and the techs cost more. Then again, the surviving will also be larger/richer, and thus able to keep up. EDIT: Actually, I only looked at this from one angle. There is another, which I've brought up before, but should have also mentioned here. As civs die out, the tech devalues quicker. 1/6 is larger than 1/8. Thus, although the floor is higher, the cost of a tech also falls faster.

I would argue for a constant percentage, rather than a fraction based upon the number of existing civilizations. Just my two cents.

-Arrian

[planetfall]

fixing tech devaluation

Soren,

To add to other, this is great that this major annoyance with 1.17 will be fixed. I have enjoyed original and 1.16 but not 1.17 primarily because of the tech devalution.

Ideas others have suggested that make sense:

1. Devaluation at end of turn
This is better than having the value changing many times during the current turn

2. Devaluation floor
Limit maximum devalution to
30% current era
40% previous era
50% post previous era
60% ancient


3. Limit Devaluation to fixed percentage
There should not be a penalty for playing with less than 16 players. Tech discovery devaluation should be fixed.

4. How about showing techs known
It would be a great addition to have a screen that shows
a. Techs known by all civs
b. Techs known by some civs
{list of techs and # of civs know}


Again thank you for fixing this problem. We need a fun game again.

[lockstep]

Re: fixing tech devaluation

Originally posted by planetfall
2. Devaluation floor
Limit maximum devalution to
30% current era
40% previous era
50% post previous era
60% ancient

Great idea! Firaxis, please adopt it!

4. How about showing techs known
It would be a great addition to have a screen that shows
a. Techs known by all civs
b. Techs known by some civs
{list of techs and # of civs know}

Also a nice idea. This could be partially implemented with additional colour-coding in the science avisor screen.

[korn469]

has anyone tried this...

this strategy would be most viable on deity where the AI gets significant cuts to its research and with AI tech pooling it is hard to get a tech lead

first thing is don't choose a scientific civ because this would waste their special ability, i suggest using civs that have one of the following traits, commercial, religious, or industrious

you completely skip building all scientific buildings and wonders and concentrate on maximizing your tax output, so the most important buildings are marketplaces and banks along with happiness structures, never put any resources into science output and always run the tax rate as high as possible, then you just trade for your tech, because the only thing that apparently modifies trades at all is your relative culture rates, but even that doesn't modify them that much

if you pursue this strategy you will find that each tech really does have a price, it might be high, but once you get enough gold you can buy any tech (ie the AI will never withhold tech from you if you can pay for it, unlike in SMAC where if there was an unbuilt wonder with that tech the AI would never sell you that tech)

would this strategy allow you to research faster than if you dumped an equal amount of resources into science? it almost seems that way to me

[solo]

korn,

I just tried this in my first OCC game with the 1.17f patch, but I did use a scientific civ for the first free tech into each age. I started the game by building the Great Library, which kept me even until Education. After that, I waited for a few civs to have each tech before trading for it with luxuries, resources, and enough gold to complete deals. I also was able to build Theory of Gravity, and bought some expensive techs, just so mine would be new enough to sell back. I quit awhile into the Modern Age when I noticed that I could not get any aluminum, rubber or uranium, all needed for a ship, but was able to keep even in tech until then.

My game included only 4 civs on a standard map, which might have slowed the overall AI tech rate, however, the strategy did work okay in that game for keeping even.

I also tried another OCC game using the same idea before the patch, but without building the Great Library. I fell well behind in science and remained about 6 techs behind the whole game. However, in this one, all I had to work with in trade was my income. (no luxuries or resources).

Now in any non-OCC game this strategy may really come into its own, since multiple cities multiply potential income and there are opportuntites to control more luxuries and resources. In this type of game, I would try for happiness wonders and also for Adam Smith's, and go for Wall Street after 5 banks are in place. Why not let the AI do the research if they always get to new techs first, and build an economic engine instead? In this scenario, I think I would still go for Theory of Evolution, too.

One note though, before installing 1.17 tech sales always gave me the best income, even with science maxed out. All that gpt from AI purchases of freshly researched techs made a huge difference. It was so much at lower levels it was embarassing, but we got to depend on it too much in deity. Super science made the most out of that opportunity, but now it no longer exists.

solo

[solo]

I'm all for a devaluation floor, too, if Firaxis is counting opinions.

I'm very much for the tech screen idea, too.

I might add that a separate screen reachable in one step, that would show all of my active trade deals (showing turns left for each) would be extremely useful, too. It is quite a cumbersome process to get to this information the way things are now, by contacting each civ.

[Jack_www]

In my current game that I started after installing the new patch I have gotten to the Industrail age around 1000 A.D. I can no longer even maintain the 1 to 2 tech leads I use to have pre 1.17 patch. All though I like that the computer players can keep up with the human or even pass them, techs become too cheap and speard too fast. Once you get cavl. all the other civs get infintry soon after that. I dont mind have civs who can rival me in tech race and can trade techs just as well as the human, but I think that the tech race is going to fast. You can't use any of the units, once you get a lot of them, they are already out of date.

[romelus]

i continued an 1.16 emperor save in the ancient era after i installed 1.17f and have found that researching yourself was no longer a good option, ever. with the money i was raking in and the cheap tech cost, i could buy new techs costing something like 4 x annual income (and old techs for much less), meaning it was equivalent to researching at 100% yourself and getting new techs every 4 turns, and old techs every 1-2 turns (or even less). it's much much better than researching yourself. you no longer have the tech need but if you maximize production you can crush the ai still.

i was also rudely surprised when my 2 despot rush cities created in 1.16 turned completely unhappy, and the unhappiness spread to a neibouring normal city after i disbanded one of the slave camps, rendering the normal city useless too...

[korn469]

i continued an 1.16 emperor save in the ancient era after i installed 1.17f and have found that researching yourself was no longer a good option, ever. with the money i was raking in and the cheap tech cost, i could buy new techs costing something like 4 x annual income (and old techs for much less), meaning it was equivalent to researching at 100% yourself and getting new techs every 4 turns, and old techs every 1-2 turns (or even less). it's much much better than researching yourself.

this is exactly what i found, and that if you know this going into the game and focus all of your infrastructure on generating cash and don't worry about scientific buildings then you can keep up in research and spend far less on each tech

again if soren is counting, i'm for a much lower tech devaluation floor, like at most 20% when the second civ gets the tech

[Arrian]

Soren,

I finally have a saved game for you to look at. Monarch level, large world, 12 civs. I can buy Invention for 1gold. I'm three turns away from researching it myself. Leo's has NOT been built. Call up the English (or any AI, I would think) and see for yourself.

-Arrian

p.s. In other news, I did notice something in this game I've never seen before. The Greeks, after deciding to backstab me while I was dealing death and destruction to Persia, actually showed up with bombard support. Granted, it was just a catapult with a hoplite guarding it, but they actually marched it up to my city and bombarded me (while attacking with other units, of course).