A real reason why tech race looks like me vs World

[Aeson]

In every case I've seen of tech devaluation while I was researching it, it still honored the 4 turn limit. Sometimes a tech would jump down to 1 turn remaining, but only if 3 or more turns of research had already gone into it. Sometimes I research 3 turns into a tech at 10% then keep research at 0% while checking each turn if raising it would finish the researching. This can result in very cheap research while maximizing your treasury, but will never get you the lead in a tech race. On Deity in many cases by the time my first 3 turns of research at 10% is done, every other Civ has the advance. I could have left my research at 70-100% and gotten it in 4 turns, but this way I get it for 3 turns of 10% and then another turn at whatever rate it takes. Either way it takes the same amount of time.

[AJ Corp. The FAIR]

Originally posted by player1


It happens to me all the time.
Even before 1.17f

I'm sorry Soren, but it also happens to me all the time.

AJ

[solo]

Attached is a save file illustrating an AI trading technique in a game using the 1.17 patch, in which the human player was denied income which might have been expected from trading new techs. The save was made in 1300, shortly after the Theory of Gravity was built. ToE generated two new techs, Steel and Combustion. By loading this save and following the steps below, some AI trading chicanery will be detected:

1) All the AI lack Steel and Combustion and France is the only one with Atomic Theory, having just discovered it. This can be verified by making contact with each AI.

2) It is not a smart trade, but France will give up Atomic Theory now if asked, for only Steel, a World Map, 2481 gold and 24 gold/turn. Accept this deal.

3) Now the Aztecs will give up 50 gold and 11 gold/turn if you trade them Atomic Theory. Accept this deal, and now see what they will offer for Steel. Only 4 gold. It appears the Aztecs are broke and can not afford more, so do not trade Steel to them.

4) End the turn by hitting return.

5) Now make contact with the Aztecs again. Notice that they now have Military Tradition and that they no longer need any Steel. It would appear that they just learned Military Tradition and were able to trade it to the French for Steel. They also have some more gold because they will now offer Military Tradition, a World Map, 5 gold and 23 gold/turn for Combustion. Accept this deal.

6) Now contact the French. Note that they do NOT have Military Tradition yet. They will accept your copy in exchange for Furs, Saltpeter and 17 gold. You can also sell them Combustion now for at least Dyes, Iron and 20 gold.


The key thing these transactions reveal is that somehow the Aztecs were able to obtain Steel from the French without giving up anything in return. A careful check of resource and luxury allotments before and after these trades do not show any changes. In one short turn, the Aztecs have also managed to regain considerable purchasing power, as can be seen by the trade of Combustion in Step 5 above. Also note that since the Aztecs had just learned Military Tradition, Steel was still completely un-researched by them, and hence, still quite valuable.

Now I’ve read a post be Soren where he says that the AI trade by all the same rules imposed on the human player, and that he considers it unfair to the human for one AI to demand and get tribute from another just to even things up. All I can conclude, is that they ARE allowed, and often DO, give each other substantial gifts, as this is the only way I can explain how the Aztecs acquired Steel and the means to purchase Combustion.

Incidently, another thing worth puzzling over is what happened to the 2481 in gold traded to the French in Step 2? Where did all that cash disappear too? It is possible that some items being built were rushed with this gold or that espionage was used a lot by the French the turn after receiving all of it, by I suspect that the AI may have the capability of storing their gold in “per/turn capability accounts”, in order to disguise their real wealth. During this game, the AI rarely had more than 50 gold on hand, and this might be the reason.

The situation in this example is not exactly the same as the one about Nuclear Fission described in Arian’s post, but it could be that the same underlying mechanism is at work, i.e. once an AI “knows” it can get a tech from another AI for free, rather than from the human player, why offer the human more than a token amount?

[Aeson]

There is one other possibility I can think of. Perhaps the Aztecs had been paying gold per turn to one of the other AI, say a rather large amount. That turn the deal expired (after your turn) and freed up a lot of the Aztecs commerce. They then traded most of that per turn gold for Steel. Since you and the French both had it, it would have been discounted quite a bit. The AI can also get things for up to half price, but I would assume it only happens when everything the AI has to trade is given in the trade. If you were on a higher difficulty level, Steel could have been quite cheap for the Aztecs. Just judging by your trade involving Steel, the AI had quite a beaker bonus.

[solo]

That's a good point, Aeson, and I may play around with an earlier save to try and initiate a trade with the Aztecs that produces similar results before that possible deal expires. I do sort of doubt there was a deal like that, but if there was, it could have only existed between the French and Aztecs, since the Germans had nothing, and my deals with the Aztecs, if I remember correctly, still had not expired.

I think I may also try reversing roles, by trading with the Aztecs first, to see if the French become broke and recover from this one turn later, just as the Aztecs did.

What is most interesting to me in this game, though, was that gold/turn deals did not happen at all until this part of the game, and did not commence until possibly "seeded" by my 1040 gold purchase of Refining from the French, just prior to building the Theory of Gravity. Up until then, all my tech deals had involved very little gold.

One other note, is that such AI activity, assuming some chicanery might be going on, does not bother me personally, as there are ways to play around such AI tactics.

I'll run a few tests on the save and get back about this. The game was on deity level, btw.

[Arrian]

Complicated stuff, but definitely worth pursuing. Do let us know what you find out guys.

I will say this: I may have overeacted slightly to 1.17. I still think that certain things are out of wack, but I'm learning to cope with the changes. Most of those changes were good. The only issues I really have with it still are the overall pace of tech advancement and the degree to which tech loses value once others know it.

I'm so annoyed I didn't save my Egyptian game with the 1gold for fission offer. I reloaded my last save, but it was way past that (the English, who made the offer, were now dead). I tried playing around with some trades, but couldn't recreate anything that crazy. Oh well, I will just have to look out for it in the future.

-Arrian

[korn469]

solo

I am not sure if this is possible but maybe you can verify it

If the player is poor the AI does not ask for tribute, it doesn't matter how much of a power difference there is the AI usually won't hit a player up for cash unless the player has some, the richer the player is the more likely the AI is to just demand cash and techs and if they player doesn't turn them over the AI will simply declare war, so if the Aztecs are more powerful than the French, could the French have reached the point where the Aztecs demand from the French?

also as far as we know strength comes from number of units, so if an AI has 50 regular warriors it thinks that is is even with a player that has 50 elite modern armor units, so as long as the Aztecs had more units this is possible, i will take a look at the save and report back

EDIT: one other thing, in the editor there is this variable called cost factor, which i know for a fact cuts shield cost, and food costs in half, it also most likely cuts tech costs in half as well

depending upon exactly how the AI computes the the science cost of a tech into the price it is willing to pay then this cost explain why it offers low prices to buy your science, and the science of other AIs, but since tech cost twice as much science for the player the AI thinks it techs are worth more

like if the player and the AI all had the same amount of techs, and then the player and AI both discover a tech with equal tech costs, on diety the AI might only be willing to pay 50 for the player's tech, while wanting 100 for its own, then on monarch it would pay 100 and want 100, and thenon chieftan it would pay 200 and want 100

then if it discounts techs on diety it would be willing to sell techs to other AIs for 25

this all depends on how science cost to price the AI is willing to pay and sell techs for is calculated though

[solo]

Arrian,

The more I fool around with this, the less logic there seems to be with what's going on. For example, if I load the 1295 save, a turn prior to the save used above (and the same turn I completed ToE), the Aztecs are willing to part with a World Map, 49 gold per turn, and 35 gold in exchange for Steel. Then, when offered combustion, they will only offer a world map. This is a significantly higher supply of gold than what they had to offer in the trading sequence listed in my previous post. If I return to that sequence and trade Steel to the Aztecs in step 3 for only 4 gold and then see what they will offer for Combustion, which only I possess, they claim to have nothing to offer in exchange. If so, what happened to that extra 38 gpt they had in the 1295 trade, at a time where they were still researching Military Tradition and the when the French had yet to learn Atomic Theory, and when no tech trades were possible between the two? Other trading sequences and combinations also yield surprising and hard to explain results, some quite counter to some inferences suggested in the previous post. Hmm. Just shows how dangerous it is to draw premature conclusions with only limited access to information about what is really going on.

korn,

Your tribute idea makes the most sense, and explains what might have happened the best, but I do distinctly remember a post by Soren where he said this is not done between the AI. I will try to check out relative strengths, though I believe the French were strongest.

I've always been convinced about what you say about the cost factor, too. Whenever I have had a new tech and tried to trade it to an AI in deity games for a tech of equivalent editor cost, I've had to add more gold or value to the deal in order to get the AI to agree to the trade. However, I have never seen them willing to part with any tech, no matter how rusty, for the pitiful amounts they sometimes proffer for my new ones. I believe there is more than relative tech costs going on in such exhanges.

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by solo
Attached is a save file illustrating an AI trading technique in a game using the 1.17 patch, in which the human player was denied income which might have been expected from trading new techs. The save was made in 1300, shortly after the Theory of Gravity was built. ToE generated two new techs, Steel and Combustion. By loading this save and following the steps below, some AI trading chicanery will be detected:

1) All the AI lack Steel and Combustion and France is the only one with Atomic Theory, having just discovered it. This can be verified by making contact with each AI.

2) It is not a smart trade, but France will give up Atomic Theory now if asked, for only Steel, a World Map, 2481 gold and 24 gold/turn. Accept this deal.

3) Now the Aztecs will give up 50 gold and 11 gold/turn if you trade them Atomic Theory. Accept this deal, and now see what they will offer for Steel. Only 4 gold. It appears the Aztecs are broke and can not afford more, so do not trade Steel to them.

4) End the turn by hitting return.

5) Now make contact with the Aztecs again. Notice that they now have Military Tradition and that they no longer need any Steel. It would appear that they just learned Military Tradition and were able to trade it to the French for Steel. They also have some more gold because they will now offer Military Tradition, a World Map, 5 gold and 23 gold/turn for Combustion. Accept this deal.

6) Now contact the French. Note that they do NOT have Military Tradition yet. They will accept your copy in exchange for Furs, Saltpeter and 17 gold. You can also sell them Combustion now for at least Dyes, Iron and 20 gold.


The key thing these transactions reveal is that somehow the Aztecs were able to obtain Steel from the French without giving up anything in return. A careful check of resource and luxury allotments before and after these trades do not show any changes. In one short turn, the Aztecs have also managed to regain considerable purchasing power, as can be seen by the trade of Combustion in Step 5 above. Also note that since the Aztecs had just learned Military Tradition, Steel was still completely un-researched by them, and hence, still quite valuable.

Now I’ve read a post be Soren where he says that the AI trade by all the same rules imposed on the human player, and that he considers it unfair to the human for one AI to demand and get tribute from another just to even things up. All I can conclude, is that they ARE allowed, and often DO, give each other substantial gifts, as this is the only way I can explain how the Aztecs acquired Steel and the means to purchase Combustion.

Incidently, another thing worth puzzling over is what happened to the 2481 in gold traded to the French in Step 2? Where did all that cash disappear too? It is possible that some items being built were rushed with this gold or that espionage was used a lot by the French the turn after receiving all of it, by I suspect that the AI may have the capability of storing their gold in “per/turn capability accounts”, in order to disguise their real wealth. During this game, the AI rarely had more than 50 gold on hand, and this might be the reason.

The situation in this example is not exactly the same as the one about Nuclear Fission described in Arian’s post, but it could be that the same underlying mechanism is at work, i.e. once an AI “knows” it can get a tech from another AI for free, rather than from the human player, why offer the human more than a token amount?

ok, you piqued my interest enough to find out what was going on... It turns out that the Aztecs had a deal paying the French 58 gpt which expired during this turn. Thus, that freed up enough gpt to purchase Steel from the French. That is where they suddenly got the money the didn't seem to have earlier.

In other words, if you conducted the same scenario one turn earlier, the Aztecs would not have been able to buy Steel because there gold was still locked up.

[player1]

Hey, Soren!

What do you think about lowering tech devalvation by making some minimum tech cost (research & gold).

Like for ex. min of 30% of full value.

No one has it 100%
One civ has it 90%
Two civs have it 80%
3 civs have it 70%
4 civs have it 60 %
5 civs have it 50%
6 civs have it 40%
7 civs have it 30%

What do you think?

P.S.
These values should be used when having contact with all 8 civs.

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by player1
Hey, Soren!

What do you think about lowering tech devalvation by making some minimum tech cost (research & gold).

Like for ex. min of 30% of full value.

No one has it 100%
One civ has it 90%
Two civs have it 80%
3 civs have it 70%
4 civs have it 60 %
5 civs have it 50%
6 civs have it 40%
7 civs have it 30%

What do you think?

P.S.
These values should be used when having contact with all 8 civs.

There already is a floor for tech devaluation. It is (1 / number of active civs). However, we are considering raising it...

[player1]

Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis
There already is a floor for tech devaluation. It is (1 / number of active civs). However, we are considering raising it...

Yes, you should make it:

CONST + [1/(number of active KNOWN civs)]

I think that const of 20-30% would be OK.

[Hurricane]

I think my thread in the general forum can point out some things discussed here, most notably a point where the Chinese sold a worthless World Map (i.e. one that everybody was given the turn before) for Philosophy and 20 gold to the Egyptians. Read the details here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=43821

I also have a screenshot of a deal where I bought Theory of Gravity for 1 gold from the French, who were Furious with me:

[Hurricane]

Here is the savegame from the 1 gold deal. Just talk to the French and ask what they need for Theory of Gravity. They will ask for 1 gold.

[Soren Johnson]

Originally posted by Hurricane
I think my thread in the general forum can point out some things discussed here, most notably a point where the Chinese sold a worthless World Map (i.e. one that everybody was given the turn before) for Philosophy and 20 gold to the Egyptians. Read the details here: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=43821

I also have a screenshot of a deal where I bought Theory of Gravity for 1 gold from the French, who were Furious with me:

Could you post a saved game for the Theory of Gravity deal?

thanks...