Quest for an OCC launch in deity

[solo]

TT,

Nice job! I was pretty sure a win was possible. I have downloaded your files and will also try it with the start that you used. I thought it would be possible with the help of the Great Library, since once you catch up, it is not that hard keeping even, especially if the AI are constantly at war, as in your game.

After being distracted too long with SimGolf, I have started only my second game with 1.17f, using korn's mod, since I promised him before to help test it out. Although this game is FCC rather than OCC, some changes in the mod make it even harder for the human at deity in the beginning of the game, but I was able to build the Great Library, but missed out on Colossus.

After that I found it easier to stay even by not researching, but by accumulating some cash instead, to use to trade for techs. This works well until the middle of the Industrial Age, when the AI start charging a lot more for new techs. However, I was able to afford all new ones before building the Theory of Evolution which netted two fresh techs and hefty mortgages from all the AI.

Meanwhile, I departed a bit from my economic only strategy detailed in a previous post here. I have been adding all scientific improvements to my cities and ToE mortgages have now allowed me to max out the research rate just at the point in a game where just buying techs is becoming too expensive. Although I am lacking Copernicus and Newton's, they are not so vital in a FCC game, so prospects are good.

So far, in one and a half games, I have found techs inexpensive to trade for up until the middle of the Industrial Age. You might want to experiment with this in your next game, as you say that you had trouble keeping up during that phase in your own game.

Must have been sweet to win after such a discouraging first attempt! Again you are first to the OCC finish line with 1.17f! Congrats!

[solo]

TT,

I just finished my game using your start, and was also fortunuate enough to get a launch, since if the AI had been trying to win this way, no less than 4 of them would have beaten me to it many turns before I had my own ship built.

I built the same wonders as you, but was also able to add Theory of Evolution, which gave me and everyone else a boost into the Modern Age early. While researching Computers, I noticed the Iroquois had learned Space Flight, so I stole that and finished Apollo in 1090 AD while waiting to finish researching Computers. A new experience for me was using an SS part to store shields to build SETI!

I was earlier to Apollo, because the AI remained peaceful for the most part, until 1140 AD, after which it was never ending war among them. However, they had already researched most SS techs, allowing me to pick each one up in about 15 turns or less by following after them. This led to a launch in 1480 AD, and resulted in my best score to date, of 3716 and a rating of "Alex the Magnificent."

In stark contrast to this game was my FCC try using korn's mod. The AI wasted no time at all beating me to a launch. I'm not sure why they acted so differently, as both games went very much the same way.

In comparison to pre 1.17f games, these have gone at a torrid pace! The usual slowdown during the Industrial Ages used to provide the human player time to get his city up to size 20 and to build a small, but decent, defensive force. I only had time to build 3 infantry to go along with my 3 warriors, and Athens did not reach full size and production until after Apollo was built!

I was unlucky, as usual, with resources, only getting my own iron, and this was exhausted 2 turns after I was able to FINALLY trade for coal very late in the Industrial Age! So whenever I saw a chance to rent some rubber, uranium, or aluminum, I took it, even if there was not an immediate need!

I think my newer policy of only turning up research when I felt I had to hurry to a new advance, worked well for me this game. This provided a lot more gold than usual for trading and just before building Theory of Gravity, I was able to buy Steel and Refining at premium prices. Two new techs from ToE were sold for hefty mortgages, giving me back all my gold and then some more.

Attached is a save of the turn before launch. I will add a log to this post after it is typed up.

[ToeTruck]

Well Done!

Excellent game Solo! I'm mighty impressed with a 1480 launch; that's the best I've seen so far.

I knew the position had some kick to it (because of the four cattle), but I didn't think it would move along as well as it did.

I like your idea of limiting Science. Under 1.16f, I usually researched at 100% unless I needed happiness. Under 1.17, I played catch up a lot. I think your modification is an excellent way to go. I'll give that a shot when I can.

Good job with Theory of Evolution, too. I was so bummed when I missed out; that might have made a difference in my game

Also, I'd like to compare resources if you have the chance; in my game, the constant bickering between my neighbors left a huge power void around my city which allowed my border to expand pretty far. At one point or another, I was producing Wines, Iron, Saltpeter, Coal, Aluminum, Uranium, and even Rubber (through a colony). I didn't need to trade for much.

These 1.17 games do fly. They're a bunch of fun to play. Keep me posted with your other successes. Again, great job.

Later.

- TT

[solo]

TT,

I loaded up your pre-launch save and took a look. What a difference between the two games! In mine the Iroquois, rather than the Romans became dominant, but then everyone else ganged up on them, and after that many teepees tumbled.

As for resources, the saltpeter and iron to the north were mine for a few turns after nearby cities were razed, and your aluminum was where my first source of iron disappeared from. After building SS fuel cells, some uranium popped up in the woods to the southwest. On your map, I noticed some to the southeast, instead. Interesting, how resources can differ this much with the same map. If you load my game, you will see what I mean. I also had game-long access to that little vinery to the southwest, where I used a warrior to help crush grapes to make the wine.

If you were partial to the Persians, before, I think that Greek Golden Age might have helped convince you which civ was tailor made for OCC, since the Greek GA coincides very nicely with the need to add the many city improvements suddenly available due to the Great Library! It surprised me, too, the first time it happened, in a previous game.

I think our launches might have been much closer together if the AI had stopped to pre-research all the SS techs for you, too, before going on the rampage. Another difference was my success with the Theory of Evolution, which I went all out for after entering the Industrial Age. Somewhere along the line, Firaxis has enhanced this wonder, allowing the player to choose the free advances, rather than just allotting the 2 crummiest ones available.

My log follows.

BC years

3950 Athens
3800 warrior
3650 warrior
3500 warrior
3450 Alphabet to Iroquois for Pottery

I was working on Colossus, but Pottery allows a quick granary just before size 3, so I switch to that to speed Athens’ growth.

3000 granary
2950 Size 3
2750 Size 4
2670 Contact Iroquois to the French for Ceremonial Burial,25g
2510 Writing, Size 5
2390 40g to F for Masonry

This will allow saving Great Library shields using the Pyramids. Meanwhile science is maxed out to get to Literature ASAP to make the switch.

2230 Size 6
2110 Colossus, Size 7
1870 contact Egypt
1700 Literature, hut: Mysticism

Now I am sweating it out, since I may not be able to finish the Great Library before one of the AI. Most games it is done by about 1500 BC, but this game it will take a little longer than that.

1625 contact Americans
1600 contact Germans
1550 Size 8
1450 1gpt,50g to F for contact Aztecs
1gpt,40g to Az for contact Romans
1400 10g to R for Warrior Code
1150 Great Library, Golden Age triggered
1125 The Wheel, Iron Working, Mathematics, Philosophy, Code of Laws, Map Making, Horseback Riding, Polytheism, Currency, Republic (revolution), Monarchy, Construction, Monotheism, Feudalism
1025 government to Republic (4 turns of GA wasted, oh well!)

During this phase of the game I only kept science turned up part way, in order to earn some extra gold. It was more efficient to lag behind a bit and buy or learn techs once all the AI knew them. In pre 1.117f games, science was maxed out almost all the time to get to new techs first in order to sell them to the AI for big mortgages. Since 1.17f, the AI do not give much gpt for techs until about mid way through the Industrial Age.

900 Theology, Chivalry, marketplace
800 harbor, size 10
790 Engineering
730 temple
710 size 11
690 Golden Age ends
670 Education, size 12
630 colosseum
590 library
570 Invention
550 university, 23g to I for furs
24g to E for dyes, 50g to G for silks
470 Astronomy
390 Aztecs destroyed by the Romans
270 Gunpowder, 1gpt,220g to I for furs,Chemistry
210 Copernicus’s Observatory
1gpt,80g to F for Navigation, Navigation to G for Music Theory,4g
1gpt,80g to I for Banking, 24g to E for dyes
50 Physics

AD years

110 60g to R for wines
150 Theory of Gravity
170 Sir Isaac Newton’s University
1gpt,250g to I for Printing Press,Metallurgy,Magnetism
Nationalism as freebie, 24g to I for furs
1gpt,30g to R for silks
180 worker
270 wines to I for Steam Power,3gpt
Steam Power,1gpt,10g to E for Democracy,Military Tradition,Economics
1g to E for Free Artistry

Ha! This is the first time I’ve been able to buy a tech for 1 gold. I wasn’t aware that if you waited long enough for off-path techs, that they were this cheap.

Not so much fun was the fact that no one had an extra coal to trade now, nor for quite a while to come, which delayed railroads until near the end of the Industrial Age.

290 bank
360 cathedral
380 1gpt,5g to R for wines
390 Industrialization, 1gpt,40g to R for Medicine,Communism
Industrialization to E for Sanitation,tmap,2g

I had been accumulating some shields to build a factory a few turns sooner, to get going on Suffrage, which is perfectly positioned and suited for pre-building the Theory of Gravity. I believe this is made possible because the AI start the wonder immediately upon the discovery of its tech, building it at about my own factory-assisted pace.

I have science maxed out now and until I discover Scientific Method, so that the switch can be made from Suffrage to the Theory of Gravity in time.


400 1gpt,5g to I for furs
460 factory, start to store shields in Suffrage
470 1gpt,5g to E for dyes
510 1gpt,30g to E for silks
520 Electricity, 50g to R for wines
560 1gpt,30g to F for spices
610 1gpt,5g to I for furs

After learning Scientific Method, I’ll switch to Theory of Gravity, which is ready to go. Now I have to scramble to buy up as many outstanding AI techs as I can. It is no time to be shy about making big gpt payments, either, since new techs from ToE will more than make up the difference. I am able to afford everything except Combustion. It’s a testimony to 1.17f AI research speed that they have been able to learn 5 techs that I still lack while still managing to beat me to Electricity and to Scientific Method by a few turns’ margin.

650 Scientific Method,
150g,1gpt to R for Corporation,Replaceable Parts
41gpt to F for Steel, 18gpt,640g to A for Refining
660 Theory of Evolution, Atomic Theory and Electronics as freebies
Atomic Theory to I for Combustion,17g,56gpt
Electronics to I for 93gpt (yes, that’s right and it IS 1.17f!)
Atomic Theory to F for 20g,33gpt
Atomic Theory to G for rubber,20g,7gpt
Atomic Theory to A for tmap,170g,8gpt

Who said the AI no longer pay big for techs?

670 1gpt,20g to G for worker
Electronics to A for wmap,13g,13gpt
680 Scientific Method to E for dyes,wmap
690 1gpt,20g to G for worker
730 hydro plant, Steel to E for silks
740 1gpt,160g to I for coal (finally!)
Combustion to R for wmap,18g,3gpt
760 1gpt,280g to F for iron

Sure enough, my own source of iron runs out, now that it’s needed to make railroads!

770 hospital, 1gpt,30g to F for spices
780 worker

After building ToE, I noticed that none of the AI had bothered to research Espionage. I have seen this happen before in other games, where once the AI “forget” to research an off-path tech, the possibility of doing this never ever occurs to them again. So I pick it to do myself, figuring it better to be first to a slightly antiquated tech, rather than being second to a newer one. I also plan to use the Intelligence Agency to store shields towards SETI. One more reason I want it, is because I’m guessing that maybe the lack of Espionage and spies has kept the AI unusually peaceful during this Industrial Age.

790 Espionage, barracks
Espionage,1gpt,280g to F for Mass Production
wines to G for 250g,2gpt
Espionage,1gpt,470g to G for Motorized Transportation
Espionage to I for 14gpt, Espionage to A for 40g,2gpt

Espionage pays off pretty well, too, netting some extra gold plus two new techs by trade.

820 infantry
830 1gpt,5g to I for furs
840 courthouse
860 infantry, 200g to G for rubber
890 infantry, Electronics to E for dyes,wmap,17g
Radio, 1gpt,960g to F for Flight, Rocketry as freebie
Rocketry to A for 40g,10gpt, Rocketry to F for 530g

Well, maybe the side trip to Espionage was not the best idea, since I trailed 2 AI into the Modern Age. As a consequence, my freebie of Rocketry did not pay off that well.

920 Flight to E for silks
950 1gpt,30g to I for ivory

Now I’m researching Computers, which will take almost 40 turns, and while doing so, I monitored the AI tech progress, which was starting to alarm me a bit. They had Fission quickly, and a little later had Ecology. After seeing the Iroquois pick up Space Flight, I decided to take a chance with a careful theft of it, since I still had about 20 turns left to learning Computers. I lacked enough gold for a safe theft.

1060 Space Flight stolen from I carefully for 1868g
Space Flight to G for aluminum,Ecology,50g,28gpt
Space Flight to A for 80g,Fission,52gpt
1080 Ecology to Egypt for wmap,3g,dyes
1090 Apollo Program
1120 Fission to E for silks
1140 SS cockpit, All AI declare war against the mighty Iroquois nation

I am sure that if this war had not begun, one of the AI would have built a ship long before I would have managed it.

1160 Mass Transit
1170 1gpt,30g to I for ivory
Space Flight to E for 100g,8gpt
saltpeter,iron to R for 130g
1190 1gpt,30g to F for spices

Computers! Finally, and I was most surprised that I was first to research this, because in the meantime the AI had acquired Synthetic Fibers, Satellites and Superconductor in spite of all out warfare. Being alone and first to Computers was a lucky break, because this granted extra trading power.

1210 Computers
Computers to I for 420g,45gpt
Computers to G for 1500g
Computers to A for 80g,wmap
1230 1gpt,30g to G for incense
1250 1gpt,190g to E for uranium
1265 1gpt,630g to E for aluminum,dyes
1270 SETI Program
1280 research lab
1285 1gpt,30g to E for silks, 1gpt,30g to I for furs
1300 Superconductor
Superconductor to E for Satellites

I had no shortage of SS techs, just a backlog of SS parts to build as soon as possible. Athens 80+ shield capacity made this go fairly quickly, though.

1325 SS engine, 1gpt,30g to F for spices
1335 SS fuel cells, 50g to I for furs
1340 290g to G for rubber
1345 50g to G for incense
1355 Synthetic Fibers
Synthetic Fibers,240g to E for Nuclear Power
50g to F for spices

I was able to trade for quite a few SS techs, which I bet TT was forced to learn in his game. The ones I had to learn came at quite a beaker discount, too. I think the timing of the start of the big AI war was what made such a big difference between our launch dates.

1360 1gpt,400g to F for uranium (no longer needed, but the French armor nearby looks a bit menacing)

1370 1gpt,1140g to E for dyes,aluminum

Thankfully, this is the last time I’ll be paying inflated prices for aluminum. It is so much easier when having your own supply of it! After SS exterior casing, no other resources are required.

1380 SS exterior casing
1390 1gpt,30g to E for silks
1405 SS thrusters
1425 SS life support
1445 SS stasis chamber, 1gpt,80g to G for furs,incense
1450 SS docking bay
1455 1gpt,30g to F for spices
1465 SS storage/supply
1475 Laser
1480 SS planetary party lounge, launch

Score: 3716, Alex the Magnificent

[seraphin]

long time ago...
anybody did it with 1.21f ?

[ToeTruck]

1.21f is *very* difficult for OCC

Seraphin,

I've tried a bunch of times with 1.21f but never have enough gold to buy the resources I need for the end game while still continuing research.

I start to fall way behind in the Industrial Age. When I go for Sanitation to get above size 12, the AI snags Combustion, Steel, Corporation, *and* beats me to the Theory of Evolution. Once that happens, I can't catch up.

The strategies that worked with 1.17 and older versions just don't seem to work under 1.21. If anyone has had some success, I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks.

- TT

[seraphin]

it is extremely more difficult - yeah...
...i could start weapin when i read how solo was able to trade with the ai on 1.17
that way of makin it has in fact become impossible on 1.21f.

my success:

http://www.civ2-forum.gamigo.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5716

a few other occ links:

http://www.civ2-forum.gamigo.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5420

http://www.civ2-forum.gamigo.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5173

http://www.civ2-forum.gamigo.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5611

http://www.civ2-forum.gamigo.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5529

dont mind if our forum is down (dont try between 4am and 8am CET) just try again the next day (we got probs wth prov.)

(my succesful attempt was lead by the idea of not being quick but slowing down the ai - in that game i had radio,combustion when the ai was at corporation and scientific methods.
in earlier attempts i used the old strat and failed:
i got all 6 wonders nearly every time (col,gb,cope,newt,toe,seti) but always failed with folowing the ai through modern times...
...i also tried to play with the starting positions that are posted here,but failed to compete with the ais early aggression (they either killed me or build GL before i could (likewise wether i build enough defense or not))
so they are useless - dont try them.
another thing: dont try the greeks its senceless without industrious (i prefer persians or egyptians).

[ToeTruck]

Slowing down the AI...excellent idea! I never tried playing OCC that way.

I've always approached OCC with a "speed it up" attitude. Under 1.17, you could win by trading and giving away tech expecting to get into a real race for space at the end.

I will have a look at your links to see what I can do.

A couple of other things:

1) Regarding start positions: At least one of the previous posts on this thread was a superior start which led to an 1180AD launch. Did you try that one with your strategy?

2) Regarding preferred civs: I've always prefered the Persians primarily because of the Industrious trait, but the Greeks often worked out very well under 1.17 and older. Why would you play the Egyptians?

3) What strategies do you use to slow down the AI?

Thanks for the post.

- TT

[seraphin]

3)
-i waited for a start with all civs at a small landmass
-i made everyone waging war against everyone
-so i got enough time to build military ,to defnd myself and to build lighthouse to maintain the ai's unability of exploring til nav.

in industrial times i had an mpp with the indians against the amerticans (the indians had more money) ,in modern times i switched cause the americans had the resources.
in fact the atempt nearly failed:
in 2020 or so they gave peace a chance and i hoped i could research the last 2 techs with them as a team...that peace lasted only 3 turns so they didnt research at all and it all became very close to 2050 (dont kwow when i won - look at the save (first link) guess it was 2046).

1)ive tried them all...dont know which one that 1100thing was.either it was greeks or it was medium map, both useless for 1.21f.

2)in fact on 1.17 greeks would be best i imagine.
i tried long time with them ,but finally realised that commercial is filth in occ (industrial is much more important) and that the good starting techs are useless cause i needed the pyramid for saving shields (>GL) nearly every time.
so the egyptians and persians became my new choices.
soon the persians became my fav. cause of the freetechs which are extremly powerfull in 1.21occ.
so while i tried the old method i used to prefer them.
my new way could have been done with the egyptians as well, i only did it with persia cause i got used to play them and i hoped the immortals would help early defense - what they did ...cause i fortunally got iron.
oh...i missed the point of the q -sorry:
if we forget occ for a sec:
i normally tend to play medium,small,tiny maps,small landmass,continents,default rules ,monarch-deity - i like early war and culture very much - so egypt,china,japan and iroq are my fav. civs: sshort i am simply used to play for colossus/GL with the starting techs of the egyptians and there building costs (cheap temple,expensive lib.) - just routine.


-nike

[Aeson]

This thread certainly deserves a bump. CivFanatic's tournament had an OCC game recently, and I just played through it trying for a launch.

Here's a log up to the UN build, and the game that goes along with it. The setup is really nice (I'm sure they edited it), but with the map size and 1.29f rules, research is outrageously difficult. It should be possible on a smaller map size though, even without IronWorks.

Settings:

Babylonians
Standard
60% Pangaea
Deity

[Aeson]

And the humbling finale... France launching in 1345AD.

[ToeTruck]

Hi Aeson,

Can you attach a 4000BC position? I'd love to give it a go.

This thread definitely should be bumped as I would love to talk OCC more frequently. The more brains the better.

Since 1.17f, my efforts have been pretty meager. I have managed Cultural victories on Regent, Monarch, and Emperor and a Space Launch on Regent, but no joy on Deity.

Lately, I've been trying for an un-doctored map leading to a Space Launch on Emperor or Deity, but I can't quite make the transition into the Industrial Ages. Under Deity, I get Colossus, Great Library and Cope's, but am overwhelmed somewhere between Newt's and the Theory of Evolution.

If you have the start position, I'd love to try a UN victory; I've never done that before.

- TT

P.S. I'm playing PTW 1.04f BTW, but I can also play 1.29f for comparison purposes.

[Aeson]

The second attachment has the 4000BC save (I just forgot to include it in the first).

[Aeson]

I didn't think the UN vote through very well. It's actually possible to get the votes the next turn, though I'd never use the sequence of events in a real game... Diplomatic victory through declaring wars right before the vote just doesn't seem right. And declaring war on the AI that has you completely surrounded isn't a good idea usually either!

Anyways:

Lux->100% (gotta cover loss of lots of luxuries, maybe WW)
Declare war on China and France (two UN opponents)
Sign MPP with Germans.
Sign Alliance vs. French with Germans
Sign Alliances vs. French and Chinese with Egyptians
Sign Alliances vs. French and Chinese with Japanese (just to be safe)

End turn, that will get the votes.