Quest for an OCC launch in deity

[solo]

Just finished looking at the replay and your log. Well done, Toe Truck! I was pretty sure someone could manage it with the start I provided, but not so soon! Congratulations!

Your game was very similar to mine, except for the fact that in my game the Romans were eliminated earlier, giving Egypt a headstart in beating the Germans and winning by domination.

I agree that fewer AI cities, as happens in smaller maps, is important. I also agree wholeheartedly with trading those freshly learned techs. Whenever I have held back the AI catch up too quickly and surge ahead. You have to keep them paying gold to slow them down. In addition, a big time war between 2 remaining AI civs has to slow their research, too, making this setup and game situation just right for OCC launch attempts. I may try this start again, just to see what happens.

Again, super game! Looking over your log has given me a few new ideas to try. Thanks!

[Hermann the Lombard]

Solo,

You realize of course that trying OCC launch at deity in Civ3 is a sure sign of masochism.

Naturally, I was wondering if it's possible but since I *just* got the game, I'm still struggling with the "regular" game. Ah, well...previews of coming attractions!

-- Hermann

[ToeTruck]

I agree with Solo that the late Roman elimination helped me out tremendously.

More rivals means greater opportunities to trade techs and luxuries plus more revenue for each tech traded.

Before the Roman elimination, I was able to follow a simple "3-cycle" as follows:

Trade first tech to A then B.
Trade second tech to B then C.
Trade third tech to C then A.

The first civ paid through the teeth, but the second still paid pretty well.

With only 2 rivals, the trade approach became:

Trade first tech to A
Trade second tech to B

That meant less revenue for me and less depletion for them.

Also, I think my tech costs were lower than yours. I got several techs for 4 turns during the Industrial Ages (while Rome was still alive), but I needed 5 turns per tech during Modern Times. Small difference maybe, but that doesn't consider the times when a rival got the tech while I was still researching. Offhand, I bet that gained me 20+ turns.

There's also the whole benefit to the diplomacy standings. With 3 rivals, I could easily get Polite, Polite, Annoyed. With 2 rivals, I was lucky to get Cautious, Annoyed (except when I was at war with the Germans, then I got Gracious from the Egyptians very easily).

I'll probably write more later. Thanks.

- TT

[Sharkyy]

hmmm... i lack much practical experience here, as i quit my only two diety games after failing to win the race to the great library. However, given the early expansion rate of the AI, I can safely assume that the GL is a must if you want an OCC launch at Diety level.

The problem for me was being able to rush the GL... without any of the means I used in CivII, I tried to "feed" my wonder city (the capital) with workers from my other cities, who would each pump up a square in the city radius (mine) and join the city, which was producing just enough food to prevent starvation. My production rate was stellar by the end of this process, but i lost the race anyway.

[ToeTruck]

No Great Library

Sharkyy,

Nope, I didn't build the Great Library nor did I build SETI. Colossus, Cope's, Newt's, Library, University, and Research Lib were good enough for me.

It's important, though, to get into Republic early so that you can leverage the 1 gold per tile benefit. And, a rivered site is very helpful.

The real key is in your trading strategy (at least that's how I see it). You must trade techs away almost as soon as you get them. And you must anticipate the wonders you do need so that you have plenty of lead time for the build. That means tracking when rivals start their builds so that you can use *that* wonder as a lead item while the tech you really need is being researched.

You also have to time your Golden Age well. I'm not sure exactly what the rules are for triggering a Golden Age, but in this game, mine came at an excellent time.

- TT

[solo]

Toe Truck,

I just managed to do it, too! The start was excellent and very similar to the one you used from my first attachment, having a tiny map, 4 civs, and a rivered coastal location with some nearby gems and 1 gold hill. The start I used for my win is attached here for anyone else that might like to try it.

I built the same wonders as you did with one exception. I used the Colossus to pre-build the Great Library, and lost Colossus to the AI, who built it shortly afterwards. (Sharkyy should check out the discussion above for making it easier to get the GL.) It really helped in this game having the AI remain fairly even in spite of their numerous wars. Even so, I just nosed out the Egyptians to win the space race, with probably just a turn or two to spare. I will post a log of the game and the final save later in another post.

By the way, my launch date was 1655 AD, too!

solo

[ToeTruck]

Superb!

I will check out your log solo, but I think I'll give the start position a go if it's included in the ZIP file. I've never tried using Colossus as a jump start on Great Library. If it worked for you, I'll probably give it a go.


Same launch date; that's cool too.

-TT

[solo]

Here is a log of my first game with a successful launch. As with Toe Truck’s game, I did not succeed without the benefit of a replay of part of the game, as I lost the chance to trade for aluminum after discovering Rocketry and had to backtrack and try that section of the game over. A handful of other moves required replays, so according to strict OCC rules, the distinction of being first to launch in OCC deity is still open. Now that I know it can be done, I am ready to try again with strict OCC rules, which forbid any replays or turn redos.

Toe Truck’s excellent game provided me with two new ideas, which I adopted in my own. The first was to control happiness with just city improvements and luxuries, instead of trying for Shakespeare’s or other happiness wonders. By importing enough luxuries, I was able to max out science with a population of 20 citizens. The second idea was to skip trying to build the SETI wonder and to go straight to Spaceflight and start building a ship. A detour to secure SETI will leave you way behind in SS construction. Almost every turn after learning Spaceflight is needed to build parts.

I disagree with Toe Truck’s conclusion that launches will become routine on standard maps in a year or so, unless a radical new strategy is introduced which makes things much easier in an unexpected way. I think deity launches will remain difficult to achieve, simply because of the limit placed on one city’s commerce. To compete with the AI in the Modern Age, I believe the player needs to be able to research techs at a rate of 12 turns per tech or better, and this is only reachable with one city’s science in tiny map games.

Finally, trying this does require a willingness to endure many failures, frustrations, and near misses, and maybe a dose of masochism, too, as has been suggested above, but that first successful launch makes it all worth while.

OCC deity, 4 civs, tiny archipelago map, 1655 launch

During the game, I concluded each AI session with a small gift, so will not mention every occurrence. I agreed to every demand for some gold and a map, too, to keep the peace.

BC years

3900 Athens

The location is excellent, with 3 gems and 1 gold hill in the city’s radius. It is also a coastal, rivered site, and one of the many grassy areas also had wheat. The only thing lacking in the immediate area were special resources. All that were needed during the game had to be traded for. A late appearing iron arrived too late in the game to be of any benefit. How I wish it could have been aluminum, or even just uranium, instead! One disadvantage of the site were the 4 jungle tiles. This dictated my early strategy of making workers to clear jungle early so I could get those gems and their commerce working as quickly as possible.

3400 worker
3150 warrior
3000 worker
2950 35g to Romans for Pottery
2700 worker
2550 warrior
2430 worker
2150 worker

Now I start on the Colossus, to pre-build shields in preparation for the Great Library.

2030 Writing

At this time most workers rejoined Athens, and with citizens able to work high commerce tiles, Literature can be researched quickly.

1600 Literature
1375 2gpt to R for Ceremonial Burial
825 Great Library, wmap,10g,1gpt to R for wmap
690 gems to R for spices,8g,4gpt
650 granary
630 Map Making
570 galley

The GL won’t work unless I know 2 or more civs, so I am rushing to find and meet the other two.

490 contact Americans, GL provides Masonry, The Wheel, Warrior Code, Mysticism, Iron Working, Mathematics, Philosophy, Code of Laws, Horseback Riding, Polytheism, Currency, Republic, Monarchy, Construction, Monotheism, Feudalism, Engineering, Athens revolts
430 government to Republic, Theology, Invention

Education can come anytime, so I switch my build to a wonder, to build up shields for Copernicus.

310 Education, GL expires
290 Monarchy,Engineering to Egyptians for 28g,2gpt
270 galley sunk by barbarians, gems to R for spices,4g,7gpt
90 Astronomy, gems to E for dyes,furs,2g,6gpt,
560g to A for Gunpowder and Music Theory,
Music Theory to R for 14g,4gpt, MT to E for 5g,1gpt

I switch over to Copernicus, which is half done.

AD years

160 Copernicus, gems,100g to R for Chivalry,Banking,Printing Press,
150g,Printing Press to A for Economics,Navigation
240 Chemistry
270 harbor
300 library

No temple yet? Importing luxuries is more efficient, and the science race and trade take precedence. I start to accumulate shields for Newton’s.

350 Physics, Chemistry,Physics,gems, to E for 34g,furs,dyes,Democracy,6gpt
Physics to R for Free Artistry,wmap,15g,5gpt,
Chemistry,Physics to A for wmap,8g,6gpt
430 Theory of Gravity, gems to R for Metallurgy,spices,9g,
Theory of G to E for 5g,9gpt, TofG to A for 50g,2gpt
500 Magnetism, Nationalism
Nationalism to R for horses,Military Tradition,wmap,20g,21gpt,
Magnetism,Nationalism to A for wmap,30g,10gpt
Magnetism,Nationalism to E for wmap,15g,9gpt
550 Newton’s University, gems to E for furs,dyes,6gpt
610 university

The race to get science up and running is complete. Science and trade are keeping me slightly ahead the AI in the race through the tech tree. The only wonder left to build is Theory of Gravity, so there is some time to get ready to expand Athens beyond size 12 and to maximize its shields and commerce.

640 Steam Power, gems to R for spices,9gpt, 7gpt to R for coal,
gems,Steam Power to A for incense,wines,wmap,30g,1gpt,
1gpt,260g to E for iron
650 temple

Take note Aeson! Seems funny that there was never enough time to do this earlier, but Athens was happy enough without it, and look at all the gold in upkeep that was saved.

660 worker
670 worker
730 Medicine, Medicine to R for horses,wmap,30g,29gpt,
Medicine,120g to E for Communism, Medicine to A for 110g,1gpt
Communism to R for 4g,3gpt
770 colosseum
820 Electricity
830 marketplace, Electricity,820g,1gpt to E for Industrialization
Industrialization to R for wmap,14g,6gpt,
Industrialization to A for 30g,7gpt,wmap
860 factory, gems to R for spices,wmap,4g,2gpt

The factory was rushed, to be able to start saving shields immediately for the Theory of Gravity using maximum production.

900 Scientific Method, SM to A for Sanitation,28gpt,
SM to E for ivory,saltpeter,60g,1gpt,
SM,Sanitation to R for 27g,12gpt
1050 Atomic Theory, AT to R for Espionage,Replaceable Parts,30gpt,
gems to R for spices,2gpt, AT,420g,2gpt to E for Corporation
AT,Corporation to A for incense,wines,20g,14gpt

Now that I have traded for all known techs, I will get new ones with Theory of Gravity. A fresh two tech lead comes at just the right time to slow down the AI and to race on to the Modern Age. Getting rocketry first is imperative.

1060 Theory of Evolution, Refining, Steel
Steel,gems to E for furs,dyes,iron,30g,42gpt,
Corporation to R for 30g,3gpt, Refining to A for 18g,9gpt
1120 hospital
1130 worker

I use the size 12 part of LaFayette’s great size-6 strategy, to pump out workers. I want 6 workers, to use in teams of 3. Six is also the number of workers that will clean up pollution in 1 turn in the easiest spots, such as grassland.

1140 barracks
1150 worker
1160 worker, Steel to A for Electronics,oil,5gpt,
Steel,Refining to R for wmap,20g,16gpt

During most of the game there was warfare between the Romans and Americans, so it was no problem keeping them in a tech deficit now. In fact, sometimes I had to wait for them to accumulate something worthwhile before selling them fresh techs. However, the Egyptians only fought a few wars and were very strong. They also had most of the resources that I needed to import, so I was never able to slow them down as much as the other two.

1180 Combustion, 30g,1gpt to E for ivory,
Combustion to R for 15g,12gpt, Combustion to A for 60g,8gpt
1190 hydro plant
1220 cathedral, 80g,1gpt to E for rubber

Now all needed improvements are in place. It is time to build up as much defense as I can before the arrival of Spaceflight. This was the only part of the game where there was some breathing room, since no more wonders were needed. Even so, much of what was built was partially rushed with gold, as I wanted a strong enough military to discourage AI sneak attacks.

1240 infantry
1250 infantry, Mass Production, MP,gems to A for coal,incense,wines,30g,15gpt,
MP,gems to R for 30g,8gpt
1255 330g,1gpt to E for iron, gems to E for furs,dyes,14gpt
1265 battleship
1270 hoplite
1280 Motorized Transportation, battleship,
MT to A for 50g,18gpt, MT to R for 60g,6gpt

2 battleships block coastal access to Athens, and make it feel safer than those mighty coastal fortresses.

1290 tank
1300 tank
1305 Flight, 560g,1gpt to A for oil, 640g,3gpt to A for Radio; Rocketry as first free Modern tech
1310 tank, Rocketry to E for Amphibious War,1250g,24gpt, 240g,4gpt to E for aluminum,
Amphibious War,Flight,Rocketry to R for 83g,47gpt,
Rocketry to A for 8g,18gpt

As I learned in the first pass, trade for what you need first, namely aluminum, before the AI trade it away to another. At this time, Egypt has the only extra aluminum and rubber, so I plan to MPP with them later while building a ship. Their being the strongest AI should help keep the Romans, my next door neighbors, peaceful. Meanwhile the Roman war with the Americans continues.

1320 SAM missile battery
1325 30g,1gpt to E for ivory
1330 tank, 60g,1gpt to E for rubber, gems to E for furs,dyes,17gpt,
gems to A for incense,wines,11gpt, 620g,1gpt to A for Advanced Flight,
AF to E for 13gpt, gems to R for spices,2gpt
1365 Space Flight, SF to R for 70g,37gpt
1370 Apollo Program, MPP established with Egypt, which was renewed every 20 turns for the rest of the game
1395 SS cockpit
1410 SS docking bay
1415 310g,1gpt to A for oil, Computers, 380g,1gpt to E for aluminum
1420 research lab, Computers,160g,1gpt to R for Satellites
1425 30g,1gpt to E for ivory
1445 220g,1gpt to E for rubber
1460 gems to A for incense,wines,12gpt, gems to R for spices,2gpt
1465 gems to E for furs,dyes,18gpt
1470 SS engine
1475 Ecology, Ecology to E for 1180g,49gpt,
Ecology to A for coal,Fission,7gpt, Ecology to R for 190g,5gpt

Now I scour the map for uranium, which is needed for SS fuel cells. Happily, Egypt has an extra that I will be able to trade for. Unhappily, it is being used now by America. All I can do is wait and see if things change.

1480 mass transit

Pollution is acting up, so I rush this, which pays off, since pollution robs shields and commerce needed for SS parts and fast research, respectively. The AI always pay well for this tech, too. I want to get to Synthetics early, since it allows 3 SS parts and one of them, SS structural, takes a long time to build. Also, once it is built, I’ll no longer need rubber.

1505 SS thrusters
1520 510g,1gpt to E for aluminum
1525 Synthetic Fibers, 600g,2gpt,SF to A for Superconductor
SF to R for 170g,4gpt
1530 30g,1gpt to E for ivory

Now the Egyptians declared war on the Americans and the Americans declared war on me. This was a lucky break, because it freed up that extra uranium. Egypt kept America busy. All America sent to attack me was one paratrooper.

1555 SS exterior casing, 380g,2gpt to E for uranium
1570 SS fuel cells
1575 Nuclear Power

I hold back on this tech, hoping to research Laser before Egypt. Meanwhile they had researched to Genetics and built the Cure for Cancer and Longevity. Good thing they took the long way to Laser.

1595 SS life support, gems to E for spices,2gpt
1620 SS stasis chamber
1625 690g,1gpt to E for aluminum
1635 SS storage supply
1640 50g,wmap to E for ivory
1650 Laser

This was discovered by Egypt 2 turns before me, as I saw my turns left for discovery dip from 6 to 2. Even though I have my last part already pre-built, I’m hoping the Egyptians can not build their last one while I wait for Laser. I have been running a deficit in order to max out science and lack enough cash now to steal it, safely. An intercepted theft attempt for less cash would zap my aluminum supply, so I decide to wait 2 turns.

1655 SS planetary party lounge, Launch

It’s a rush, especially after so many other games that ended in failure. Athens had the right stuff to do this. At its peak it was putting out 67 commerce, 301 beakers and almost 70 shields per turn. The attached file is just before launch.

[ToeTruck]

OCC Space Race Win on Small Map

I just finished an OCC game with a Space Race launch date of 1786AD. I played the Persians on a small random map with five random rivals.

Having five civs to trade with helped immensely over the Tiny map and I never seemed to fall too far behind like I often do on the standard map. The end game was interesting, though, simply becase the last century or so was played with just me and the Chinese. Everyone else had been eliminated. That was a real challenge.

I did restart a couple of times for complete blunders like ordering a unit the wrong way or forgetting to switch my lead item builds, but no *strategic* replay was necessary. Maybe not a strict OCC win, but I felt pretty good about it.

Log, start position, and last save game are attached.

Solo, I know you feel otherwise, but this win does make me think OCC Launches are quite doable on a standard map.

Later.

-TT

[solo]

TT,

Another win so quickly on a bigger map is impressive. Nice going! A small map is still close enough to the range of one city's capability. I have downloaded your file and am anxious to look at it in detail.

As for standard maps, I'll stick my neck out and stay with my prediction for now! In CivII I was used to games where launches were "routine" for all players, and it was just a matter of who was able to arrive at AC first. I don't see that happening in CivIII, especially on standard maps.

[solo]

TT,

Just did it without any replays using your excellent start as the Persians, but my launch was 2 turns later in 1790, which might be due to a turn of civil disorder. I built the same wonders, except added the Great Library, too, which I thought might be possible with this map size even without the Greek starting tech advantage of Alphabet.

This game was quite a bit easier than the last, and had its weird qualities, as I was the only one building a ship for my first four parts. Soon after the Babs joined the space race the Chinese snuffed them out. The Chinese were not quite as dominant in my game as they were in yours, since there were still a few Japanese cities around at the end.

Many cities changed hands around me during the game, and there were 2 aluminum taunting me just outside of my borders, until the Chinese leveled a Japanese city, putting one just inside for a change! What a switch from the usual, where you have to wheel and deal or fight for what you need to build a ship. The last half of building the ship was no sweat, and I also held off learning that last tech until SS Planetary Party Lounge was pre-built and ready to go.

Could be that small maps are optimum for OCC launch games, but all science wonders, including SETI are vital in order to keep techs coming at 15 turns or less in the Modern Age. With small maps resources are plentiful enough. When Colossus expires, it seems to take forever for Computers and for SETI to be built. I ended the game with over 4000 gold and was giving it away right and left the last few turns! If I were to redo a move it would be the second to last one, where I would declare war on everyone and just tee off for the fun of it before launching the following turn.

Uncanny too, how close our launch dates have been, because games play out quite differently. Also, funny how each one of us was first, in a different way, using the other's starts!

solo

[ToeTruck]

Deity Space Race Win - Standard Map - Seven Rivals

I have just had the good fortune to finish a standard map OCC game with the full complement of seven rivals. In 1685.

First off, a big thanks to solo for his immensely powerful Great Library strategy. Up until this game, I did not fully appreciate this approach.

Since I played the Persians, I took the upfront pain to research Alphabet first, before jumping in to Writing, but it worked out just great. Next time, I might try the Greeks, but I have to say, the pumped-up workers and freebie techs really paid off.

Log, initial start, and turn before launch are attached.

Talk to you all later.

- TT

[solo]

TT,

I thought you were up to something. I have been trying this, too, but have not succeeded yet. I will download your file and try it with your start before looking at the result or log, to see if I can duplicate your result. I have my doubts, as this is tougher on a standard map. So far, I find this feat the most impressive so far in OCC play. Congrats on a superb effort! Now please tell me you had some real lucky breaks in order to do it!

solo

[ToeTruck]

Solo,

I did catch a couple of breaks.

1) I finished two wonders (Cope's and Newton's) just ahead of my rivals. Within 4(!) turns of finishing Cope's, Leonardo's, JS Bach's, and Magellan's all finished up. Without these wonders, there's no way I could have won.

2) I was the beneficiary of a mid-game war and a late-game war. The first kept my immediate neighbor off my case. The second totally distracted my rivals from the Space Race. I mean totally.

3) With a ton of cash, I resorted to stealing tech 4 times. Each time I used the "safely" option, so I don't think this is too lucky. I've never been caught at safely before, but I just don't know the odds.

That said, I think there is a ton of room for optimizing this game. I think there is just *way* too much information available in Civ3 versus Civ2. Someone who is really paying attention could get some serious launch dates.

Later.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

Greeks are almost too good!

Well, I tried a couple of standard games with the Greeks and I ran into the same problem each time: The Colossus came too quickly. I had no good way of cutting back on production yet there was no viable "lead item" for the Great Library if I did build Colossus.

When I played the Persians, I could take Colossus when the time came or switch to the Pyramids if I thought GL was right around the corner.

Bottom line, I think the wonder flexibility (Masonry and Bronze Working) plus the pumped workers of the Persians outweighs the early Alphabet offered by the Greeks. I haven't really considered the pluses of Commercial, though.

On the other hand, if the timing is right, a good Greek start could be unbeatable. In my 3 tries, I was 4 and 7 turns away from the Great Library (using Colossus as lead) and 11 turns away from *both* Colossus and GL. That's pretty close.

I'm still trying...

Later.

- TT

P.S. Anyone have any good starting positions to swap? Let me know.