Quest for an OCC launch in deity

[solo]

Attached is a very fine starting location I tried using for an OCC spaceship win in deity. I was able to establish a tech lead in the late Industrial Age, but lost due to a domination win by one of the AI, right after I discovered radio. Too bad, as there was a real chance to build a spaceship first in this one. Maybe some of you others may want to give it a try using this start. Keep in mind that all victory types were enabled.

In recent attempts, I’ve been using the Greek civ, (scientific and commercial) since they start with Bronze Working and Alphabet. If Writing is researched first, then Literature is only one step away and there is a very good chance of beating the AI to the Great Library. If the Colossus is also built, a Golden Age is triggered, and the Greeks have good chances for one or more Middle Age wonders, as well.

Has anyone else been trying this? If so, maybe we can share our experiences and results here.

[Marquis de Sodaq]

I only have two games under the belt, but will try it as soon as I get the hang of more game elements! Altho I don't expect to impress anybody with the results, maybe I can contribute to the strategy...

[ToeTruck]

Whoa...

Solo,

That's one excellent start. I think I see a coast there, right?

Also, I finally finished the FCC game. Worked out okay, but I needed a restart.

- TT

[solo]

Yes, it is coast, giving the location all the ingredients you could want for an OCC start. I wish I had turned off domination wins when generating this one, but there was not much I could do to alter how the AI interacted. Every game is different, so maybe this will not become a problem for someone else if they try it.

Since this one, I have not come even close to having another starting location so close to the ideal, but in another game, I was doing very well, too, with 7 parts or so built only to lose to an AI cultural victory.

[ToeTruck]

Lot's of early excitement...

First try just starting. I won't say more, but I'm happy with my site. This start position seems to have a bunch of surprises and a couple of excellent "what ifs".

Thanks Solo.

- TT

[Aeson]

Solo,

Is this patch or pre-patch? Just getting a tech lead on Deity during the Industrial Age is quite impressive with the patch, as tech-trading was nerfed.

I have been trying and trying to get the Great Library first in OCC Deity games, and have never succeeded. With the patch it takes 40 turns for Writing, and then 24 turns was the best I was able to do for Literature (had the Collosus). Without the Collosus it was 28 I think, and less chance for "spillover" from other AI (one of them uses up their production in building the Collosus themselves). Also a stop for Ceremonial Burial (8 turns) is in order if you want any chance of getting to size 5 without major happiness problems, assuming 1 luxury. With a perfect starting position, building 2 Warriors is 10 turns, a Temple is another 15, then the GL is 50. That would mean the earliest the GL could be built is ~75 turns. The AI always beats that number (about 30 tries so far). Getting lucky and trading Bronze Working for Ceremonial Burial as the Greeks even didn't cut it. The few times I was lucky enough to research Literature before the last prior wonder had been built (so I could save up production), and with a "maxed" production of 3 mines, a mined cow, and mined grassland, I still fell 20 turns short. I had built a barracks, but that only accounts for 8 of the turns. I even resorted to making a "perfect" starting location in the editor just to try, and with 8 AI Civs, it just is impossible get the Great Library as far as I can tell. Maybe with 2 luxuries, a couple game in the forest, a wheat on a floodplain, and some mined gold hills... Or am I just missing something obvious?

I think for OCC Deity games, designing a starting location in the editor really isnt any worse than restarting over and over to get the same location. Obviously a poor location makes it impossible to do anyways, so restarting is nessesary unless extremely lucky.

Most of my attempts have been with the Greeks, partly for GL tries, and partly for hoplites. Just get your nearest neighbor to declare war on you, have about 4 hoplites in your city, or a strategic mountain, and they will throw their whole archer/horseman/warrior army at them. After a few turns they will negotiate a peace treaty, and usually you can get all their tech and money (as they have no more "army"), even though they are in a much stronger posistion still.

After that it seems one Civ becomes all powerful by the end of the Middle ages (Germans or Egyptians in all my games). And by the time I can catch up in tech, they usually decide my 15 riflemen are just too tempting. A lot of surviving is just luck in having the AI fight to a stalemate it seems.

I haven't tried much military conquest yet, as I've always been trying for the GL. Maybe a very early prolonged war could produce some leaders. The Zulu's might be the best for that, as very rarely can having Iron or Horses be relied upon. Impies are very good units without resources, and the Military trait will help with leaders.

[solo]

Toe Truck,

You’re quite welcome, and have fun and good luck.

Aeson,

Many points to consider and I will try to address them all:

1) My game from this start was played after installing the patch. The start was on a tiny map, by the way, which has much lower research costs. You are right about tech trading being somewhat harder, but IF you can research something first, before one or more of the AI, they will still shell out a lot of gold per turn to buy it from you. You can also get a lot of gold per turn for luxuries, especially, gems. (Make sure to renegotiate every 20 turns.) When you get them paying you a lot of gold per turn 3 good things happen:

a) They must reduce their own rate of research to keep paying all that gold per turn.

b) You accumulate more cash to buy essential techs, when needed.

c) With a hefty per turn income, you can set your own science to 90 or 100%.

With a scientific civ, that free tech between ages is often the first one that can be used this way. Another thing allowing you to catch up is that the AI will spend a lot of research time on off-path techs. They often switch to Communism and fight big wars during the Industrial Age, and this slows their research down, too. One more point is that the AI are most likely to trade a desirable tech or techs for a strategic resource that they need.

Finally, getting the Great Library can make all the difference in the world, allowing you to make up the huge tech deficit of the early game, allowing you to save up plenty of gold and giving you a chance for Shakespeare’s and the Scientific wonders, which boost your own research. In my game, the GL got me even, trading kept me even, and then I was able to get ahead by 2 techs by building Theory of Evolution.

2) I never used to bother trying for the Great Library, but since playing with the Greeks, I get it now in about half the games I’ve started. There are a number of things I do help increase my chances:

a) I only select 3 AI opponents, regardless of map size. This increases the chances of fewer civs starting the game with Alphabet in hand. It also reduces the speed at which the AI acquire techs, because they have fewer tech trading partners.

b) I pick archipelago maps with the maximum amount of water. This slows down their early expansion, and subsequently their research speed. It also increases the odds of less AI interaction and tech trading early in the game. The bigger the map, the easier it is to build the GL, because the chances of early isolation increase, and tech learning slows down even for the AI. I also like getting my very own uncharted desert isle, just like Gilligan, where resources are easier to keep for myself, and where it is harder for the AI to find me and to do real damage when they attack.

c) I avoid contact, and especially avoid tech trades before getting the GL. This way the AI may waste time learning a another tech before Literature.

d) A temple is not necessary. I’ve had cities up to size 8 without a temple, using luxuries and as much early commerce as I can muster from a good starting location. Though it helps a lot, a nearby luxury is not essential for keeping happiness. I don’t think I have ever needed more than 50% luxuries to keep a size 8 city happy. Saving 8 turns or the damage of a tech trade may be just what is needed in many games to build the GL first.

e) I pre-build as much as the GL as possible before learning Literature. This is where the Colossus comes in handy, since the AI or not apt to build it early unless they have a coastal starting location. Sometimes I build the Colossus first to lessen the time needed to research Literature, but for tiny map games I’ve always had to use it to pre-build half of the GL. On bigger maps, I keep track of those earlier messages which tell you your civ is in last place, because it also tells you which other civs are in the game before you’ve even met. Are any starting with Alphabet? How quick are they to completing other early wonders such as the Pyramids and Oracle? My city size and shield production are other factors that enter this equation of deciding how to use the Colossus. By the way, in a number of games where I have used it to pre-build the GL, I was able to continue on and build the Colossus right afterwards. Seems if the AI don’t beat you the Colossus early, you are likely to get it anyways, later.

f) I will attach a start on a standard map where I built the GL after completing the Colossus in my own game.

g) Even by doing all these things, I still miss getting the GL in about half the starts I try building it, but I’m guessing that’s better than never.

3) With what we know now, it almost seems imperative to have a nearly “perfect” starting location. No point trying this with a desert start on a peninsula with an adjacent Zulu city blocking you off, is there? Personally, I look for promising ingredients before trying a start, and will discard it quickly if things do not develop well. The key thing now is to find out if this possible at all on deity, so why waste time on any but the most promising starts or waste time discussing the proprieties of using a custom start. If someone succeeds using an edited map, my hat is off to them, and I will want to know more details about how they managed to do it.

4) I used to prefer the Babs, but now it’s the Greeks for all the same reasons you mentioned. I picked them first for early access to Colossus and the GL and the science attribute, but am just starting to appreciate how valuable hoplites are early in the game, having built Copernicus with a hoplite-generated leader just before an AI capitol had finished polishing the telescope in their own observatory.

5) One thing still playing havoc with my efforts is that one AI civ often becomes dominant. When they clear off their neighbors, I am left, or they have accumulated enough territory or culture to beat me another way. This may be one of the drawbacks of playing games with only 4 civs. To alleviate this, I am turning off all kinds of wins except spaceship or conquest in subsequent starts. After all, these were the only two ways to victory in CivII where OCC originated, so why make things harder than they already are.

6) Time to stop before I get carried away, but I want to see someone beat this game with an OCC launch in deity!

[moomin]

Originally posted by solo

3) With what we know now, it almost seems imperative to have a nearly “perfect” starting location. [...] The key thing now is to find out if this possible at all on deity, so why waste time on any but the most promising starts or waste time discussing the proprieties of using a custom start. If someone succeeds using an edited map, my hat is off to them, and I will want to know more details about how they managed to do it.

While I agree with this in principle - seeing no inherent difference between restarting again and again until you get the honeypot and creating the honeypot in an editor - how would you feel about an editor start that featured most strategics and, say, four luxuries, within the culture reach?

Or, more interestingly, about an editored start that featured the possiblity of building the Iron Works, which, I shall have you note, is actually a possibility with the random generator, albeit a very small one?

[solo]

I would hope, and incidently, do believe that every conceivable advantage that could be conferred with an edited map would not be necessary for a successful game. If two individuals were to manage to do it, one using an edited map and one not, I would think more of the effort using the starting position having fewer inherent advantages. No one to my knowledge has been able to produce this kind of win yet, which is why I still remain open to all ways of making the attempt.

[Aeson]

I agree, the way that OCC Deity Launches should be judged is by the starting location. The worse the starting location, the more impressive it would be. Whether the starting point was randomly generated, or edited, wouldn't really change that fact. I edited a map earlier today and played through to the start of the space race, but then realized that there was no way I could get any Aluminum or Uranium. There were 1 of each on the map, and both controled by the superpower Civ. Even if I could have captured the resources, they were on seperate islands, and I never could have linked them up to my city. Guess I should have done a bit more editing

Going back and looking at Tiny/Archipelago maps in the editor, some of the time one of the required resources (Aluminum, Uranium, Rubber) was missing from the map, and almost never were all 3 on the same island. To win with any regularity, it would have to be on a different map setting.

[solo]

Aeson,

Hmm. Thanks for the tip about resources. I have won before, with more cities in a tiny map game where I had to import aluminum, rubber and uranium, but this was with continents. With an average of only 1 each of key commodities on archipelago maps, the AI won't be wanting to trade. Out of curiosity, how much did you test this out in the editor? Enough to make a firm conclusion about lack of resources?

[Aeson]

It was only something like 15-20 maps that I looked at. With no way to build colonies overseas, this is a pretty big stumbling block. It certainly wasn't anything like a scientific study though, just a general observation while I was looking for how often a "good" city site would occur somewhere on the map. It was very rare that all 3 of the required resources would be on the same island. The exceptions were usually the islands that were big enough for 2 to 4 starting locations were placed on it. I think it would be better to try on larger landmass games, where at least the possibility exists to win, even if its less likely (when the resources are present in both cases). I even started out a Huge Pangaea game with the Zulu's. I had a considerable tech lead after all the huts were gone, but it didn't take long for my 1.33GHz 512MB RAM machine to slow down to a crawl while processing the turns. Also the later Tech advancement rate was just too slow because of the map size.

I did finally manage to build the great library though! Granted it was with a nicely edited position (river, cow, game in the forest, gold hill to build the city on, 2 wines on hills, and coastal access). With the map how it was, I didn't get contact with any Civs until they started building Frigates and Galleons, and by the time the second Civ made contact, I ended up "overflowing" the Great Library limit of Education clear to Electricity, Medicine, and Industrialization (39 Techs in all). I think waiting for contact hurt more than it helped though, as I hadn't been able to build any Middle Age (or late Ancient) wonders or buildings. I had just stopped researching after I made it to Republic, waiting for the GL to do its thing while the treasury filled up.

[solo]

Maybe a larger map size with fewer civs is the best way to go. The map certainly shouldn't be bigger than standard, I think, because even on that size modern techs require over 300 beakers to research in 20 turns, and 300 is about the upper limit for one city. By the way, the second start I provided was on a standard map. Right now I am leaning toward a small archipelago map with average or little ocean. Seems that on small, and especially on tiny maps, the AI often start right next to you and zero in on all the surrounding terrain with their cities, scooping up real estate that may contain needed resources.

By the way, I don't not think the playtesters used anything other than standard maps in their games. In many ways the game is unplayable as you approach the extreme sizes.

Nice to see you've managed to build the GL. I agree that it is probably best to make contact before the Middle Age wonders are bypassed. Just use it to catch up, freeing trade to generate income. Once you get used to building it a few times, you start to wonder how you ever managed without it. It was always taking me until the late Middle Ages to catch up when playing without it.

[ToeTruck]

Joy to play...

I actually won the Space Race.

My first OCC win with Civ3. The tiny map helped, but I think early launches are possible with bigger maps. In a year or so, I bet they will be common.

It took one restart, but by replaying the Modern Times, I snagged a 1655AD Launch.

Log and save game are attached.

I like to play with just a few cities; that allows me to focus on the tasks at hand and keeps the game moving. A Tiny map just makes the game that much quicker.

Normally I trade Techs like crazy, it gives me the cash I need to keep my research high while allowing my rivals to research techs I will eventually need.

In my first pass, I became chicken in the Modern Times and held my techs close, beginning with Radio. Well guess what, Egypt researched it in 2 or 3 turns and had Space Flight while I was still struggling with Computers. I never had the cash to fund research or buy Rubber/Aluminum/Uranium. As a result, Cleo beat me to launch big time.

In my second pass, I did the exact opposite and it paid off handsomely. I never got SETI, but still did very well. My research rate was about 17 turns for new techs and 5 or 6 for those held by rivals. I sold my new techs every 20 turns (right after the old contracts expired) and had plenty of cash on hand to buy the resources I needed.

That's it for now.

- TT

[ToeTruck]

Good Standard Start

Here's another very good start position, this time under standard. No big river, but plenty of other resources.

My first three turns are included in the attached zip file.

Good luck.

- TT