Vel's Strategy Thread - Part Three

[eMarkM]

I've done a variation of your Oscillating Strategy (or whatever you're calling it), only it's usually a little later in the game w/ swordsmen instead of archers. It's really a variation of vassal strategy. Take them down just enough to bring them to table, get their tech, move on to next neighbor and do the same. One thing I would add is to incorporate resource denial if you can.

Send the troops to the city that has their only iron, far more important than any other consideration. Or that patch of luxs, but mainly iron. Of course, you don't have to attack, sometimes you just send a settler in to take the unclaimed iron. That's my main emphasis in my early game and early wars. Preventing them from getting iron means preventing them from making swordmen/pikemen which means you can do whatever you want to them before saltpeter is discovered. Make them a vassal, client state, outright conquest, whatever and whenever you feel like. Not always possible geographically to isolate from iron, but it usually is, especially early.

On client states, this is fine, but if they're so weak that I can take them out and have a well placed FP make them relatively corruption free, I'll always do that. Why prune if you can apply the pesticide. If I've already build FP or the civ is too far away, them "clientizing" is fine. Also, once you discover the overseas civs, more than likely one or more of them has been marginalized and you can apply the same techniques of selling really old tech and outdated resources to them the same you would one you've "pruned".

FWIW, my emp game I mentioned earlier is going well. I vassalized iron-less Germans and French and now they're both in the history books. They were pure vassals, always renegotiated peace and made them hand over entire treasury, but eventually I eliminated them. Built perfectly placed FP and now both former empires are working well for me.

Five of the 8 civs are gone. Now only me and Iroquois on this continent and Russia are left. Russia is awe inspiring w/ entire other continent claimed. I have all the resources I need--but so do they. But I'm ahead in the tech race now and have completely modernized army (they both still have some spearmen). At war w/ Iroquois now and have taken 5 cities trying to get them to make peace, but they won't come to the table. I have tanks, mech & 3000 gold and they don't. Russians now starting war w/ me and I'm forced to go commie from weariness. I'm building Apollo now to attempt space win. Should be a good finish.

e

[vmxa1]

Vel, I am glad to see you come around, I went to this type of strategy on my third game. One thing I am not so sure aout and that is demanding cities. I have never gotten a city in return for anything, no matter how much stronger I am than them. I also also eliminate my nearest AI, I do not see any way around that on a std map or less. You just do not have enough space to share. It seems to me that getting your workers to build up some mines very early is critical. My current game, I was unable to do it and it made it very hard. It really hurts your ability to make wonders. Making elite warriors or other units early is so important. I feel barracks are needed in at least the cities that are going to be attacked. The fast healing turns the tide as they start sending units to attack in ones and two's. In any event it is more fun to be fighting than to be passively building. The first games you can build and be happy seeing the new stuff, but soon that does not keep you interested by itself.

[Velociryx]

Hey guys!

A good point re: use of the FP!
This mostly depends on the current map and your favored style of play.

Personally, I love the thought of a Classic ("old world/new world") empire, and will often hold my FP until I can establish a presence on some other continent. However, sometimes the map is just "right" for it, and you can develop a sprawling empire right there on your own continent. Under the first methodology, odds are good that you'll find yourself keeping the weak civs near you alive and making them junior partners for your future overseas festivities. OTOH, if the map you're on lends itself to a masterpiece of an empire all on one continent, drop the FP and run with it, blowing nearby civs off the map and replacing them with your colors!

As to demanding cities, I had it happen just last night, playing my game out on Marla's Earth map....my bada$$ French Army marched into Russian territory, I called up the "Lovely" Catherine and simply asked her to hand over (whatever the name of the town was), or else. She said she couldn't believe I was risking the friendship of russia for it, but that she would comply with my request.

So...I kept it, and then plowed through one of Rome's last cities without so much as a by your leave, promptly selling it off to my German allies. Two turns later, the Russians massed troops on the german border, and the following turn, a german worker was captured in the opening shot of a Russian invasion of Germany.

The Germans were quick to call on their larger French allies (we have a standing RoP agreement, and I had troops already stationed near german cities), and of course, we informed the Chancellor that the French would gladly come to the aid of their German brothers.

So far, we've taken two more russian towns, selling one to the germans and giving the other to them (it's war time, and they're stretched pretty thin cos of the fighting, so we got them from polite to gracious by gifting them a city).

Workin' like a charm....

-=Vel=-

EDIT: I agree 100% on the resource denial aspect, however, I will be quick to add that once I boost my relations with a client civ, I’ll oftentimes sell him back his own iron to allow him to create a viable army (lets him be all the more useful in assisting me against our common enemies).

[eMarkM]

I love the thought of a Classic ("old world/new world") empire, and will often hold my FP until I can establish a presence on some other continent. However, sometimes the map is just "right" for it, and you can develop a sprawling empire right there on your own continent

Hmmm, never even thought about making any kind of presence on another continent in this way. I rarely even set foot on other continents, except for a resource war or something. I just don't like the logistics of it (until airports anyway). I've played only continent, "standard" settings so far and find that the continent I'm on is always "right" for my sprawling empire.

Standard procedure is to take over a neighbor and generally rush build the FP w/ Leader from the war in their former capital (or other city in center of their former territory). Basically replace their palace with my faux palace, effectively giving me a super-sized, double-core empire. It doesn't really matter the geography as long as they border your core empire. Now that's a good 30-40 contiguous cities w/ corruption more or less in check. Connect them all up with RR, keep your army modern, control your borders, and it's pretty difficult to get beat in the late game militarily.

You run the risk of another civ going unchecked and running amok on the other continents. And one generally does, like the russkies in my emp game, but I've still managed to beat them in a space race even if they're way ahead of me on the histograph.

e

[Velociryx]

::nods:: Your standard procedures run very similarly to games I play where I'm content to stay on one continent, but when I can find a way to mosey over to the land next door, I'll generally do it at first opportunity (taking advantage of whatever political machinations have been occuring over there that may have left one or more "sick dogs" in the New World. Easy marks for my veteran and elite forces.

Once established, the FP goes into production, and wars of opportunity are fought long just long enough to generate a great leader (if I haven't brought one with me)...speed build the FP in the New World, and I'm all set up and ready to keep the civs on yonder continent from getting too uppity (generally, this amounts to siding with the underdogs in conflicts to help bring down the resident big-dog of the new world).

Granted, it's a little dicey until the modern age (airports), and sometimes it leaves you with the feeling of being over-extended, but it DOES bring maritime stuff into the limelight, and I love playing with those little boats! LOL...so of course, I was drawn to any strat that made the naval aspect of the game more important.

-=Vel=-

[eMarkM]

I love playing with those little boats

Yeah, I'm going to have to play an archipeligo world since I virtually ignore navy until destroyers. That would force me to consider them and work on ways to use them. I've gotten away w/ not building ANY galleys, frigates, galleon & caravels in some of my games. There's no need to explore the world when you can trade world maps and there's enough intrigue on your home continent.

e

[Velociryx]

Terms and definitions:

The language used to describe game conditions in Civ3 is still evolving, and a number of new terms have been popping up on the boards to describe stuff....It occurred to me as I sit here shortly before lunch, that we’re using a number of terms that newer players may or may not know precisely what to make of at first glance. Now, perhaps not everyone will agree with me on the precise definitions, but here’s how I see the various terms:

Vassal-State: A nearby civ that you beat up on in the early game to force them to give up techs and money. Commonly employed to achieve tech parity on Monarch and above. (You can safely assume that these guys will be none too fond of you up until the day you decide to end their lives! These guys are your punching bags!)

Client-State: A nearby civ that you have made war on in the early game and completely stifled his growth. The civ is now a smallish, backwater state. Not technologically advanced at all and the perfect customer for your older, unwanted resources (horses and saltpeter specifically, and any runoff luxury items that you can’t trade more profitably to a larger civ). These guys start off being furious with you (cos you attacked them early on), but with care and attention, you can change their minds. These are the civs you can carefully groom, nurture and grow into viable junior partners for yourself (perhaps even allowing them to “graduate” at some point by catching them up in tech—assuming you have found another civ to dump your horses and saltpeter on!). These are the real gems of the late game…sturdy, reliable allies you can count on when it’s down to you and a couple of other big sharks in the water.

“Pruning”: Attacking a Civ not to destroy, but merely to weaken. You grow at his expense.

Oscillating war: Intentionally NOT focusing on a single civ to that civ’s destruction. Instead, fighting a series of “pruning” wars, taking each civ near you down a notch, one at a time. The end result is that you get big at everyone’s expense, everyone gets correspondingly smaller, and thus, easier to control (if you focus on just 1-2 civs and beat them down, sure, you’ll wipe them out, but while you’re busy with that, the civ you haven’t been messing with is building up his position….better to hit them all incrementally!)


-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

cross-posted with your navy comment....even better...play Marla's Earth Map! OMG does it ever rock! And it's such fun, seeing my cute little French Galleys bottling up the English Channel (er....make that French Channel, since we crossed it and took the British Isle from them!), sailing through the Med....VERY cool stuff!

My fleet is somewhat small (5 galleys, 2 in the Channel, 3 stationed near Gibraltar), but servicable....and I'll be bulking it up with a few new additions shortly....very good map, and it truly does highlight the importance of navy! The thing that has made me so successful in this game was the inclusion of those five galleys, and the ability to quickly shift large chunks of my army from one theater to another (France, to the British Isle, thence to North Africa, and finally to Scandanavia).

Awesome....

-=Vel=-

[Didymus]

Recalcitrant trader? Naw.

Originally posted by Arrian
Another note on trading w/the AI: last night I offered the following to Bismarck for Wine:

Ivory
Fur
Dye
Gems
Coal

"I doubt they will accept this proposal."

-Arrian

The reason he does this is: he has NO WINE!

[eMarkM]

These are the real gems of the late game…sturdy, reliable allies you can count on when it’s down to you and a couple of other big sharks in the water.

And if they've been your friends and allies long enough, I assume you could get their UN vote in a diplomatic victory.

Speaking of which, we really haven't talked about victory options too much, i.e., what type of victory to go for. When to make the decision on which way to go?

Every win I've had has been by space race. Get the tech lead and build all the parts before anyone else can. Haven't come near a culture win, probably because I haven't tried a culture vulture civ like the Babs. I've had a couple of opportunities for domination, but it's a pretty tedious end game mopping up and went for SS instead.

Haven't really had shot at diplo win, either. Though I make it a point to build the UN in every game. Mostly to filibuster on the vote forever since the ones I've warmongered against won't vote for me and everyone else I've been pretty isolationist with. I build it not to lose. Of course, a lot of people turn diplo win off from the beginning, calling it flawed. I have it on, even though it's more of a pain to build UN to prevent election, since I never have personally had a shot at it. I think you would have a very good shot w/ "clients". Another thing to consider in this type of strategy. Can you get enough clients to give you a majority.

e

[Gamer at heart]

Oscillating War

I find the concept very interesting, but a bit extreme. I know it was most likely your idea in suggesting it as well. That's a good thing to present such extremes as it allows us to put them in our bank of tactics and use them moderately when it is needed.

I have used it to some extent thus far, but mainly to grab enemy ressources and to limit their expansion. I usually concentrate on the biggest civ on my continent to gain much of it's territory, and then keep on waring with other civs mainly to get a much needed leader for a much too far FP or new palace. eMarkM pretty much has the same strategy as I, and the same lazyness about building soon-to-be-obsolete naval units as well.

By the way, can anyone tell me the exact number of cities you can build on each map size before it increases corruption noticeably?

EDIT seeing Vel's new post: A very fine analysis of the victory types! I've won a few Diplo-Victories and a few SS-Victories, so I turned both off in my last game to see how it'ld turn out. The only problem now is that I can't really lose because I'm a bit too strong AND in good terms with everyone, but I have no real way of winning...Next time, all the victories will be allowed again!

And back to the Oscillating War, don't you run the risk of seeing everyone teaming up against you before you've had time enough to weaken them all? I usually make extensive use of alliances when I'm fighting a war, but I would'nt want to see averyone against me!

GaH

[Velociryx]

Excellent point re: Diplo-Victory. I'm guessing that the reason it's not been brought up before is, as you say, it's the one option that most folks tend to just plain turn off. Personally, I do what you do....leave it on, and then build the UN to avoid getting cheesed out of the game. I've never called a vote, but in my Marla-Map game, I think I will, just to see what happens! I'm the clear front runner (having about twice the score and thrice the culture as the next nearest competitor....sort of a tie for second between India/China), I've got Germany as a client, England as....I'm not sure what to call them...might just kill them off at this point), and the Greeks and I are long-standing allies who have never fought.

I've not built my FP yet, and am thinking about forming a German-Greek coalition to bust Egypt up, placing my FP in Thebes....a long way from my Palace, I know, but that should give me (commerical civ) the ability to control most of north africa with resonable corruption levles).....plus, it positions me nicely to control late-game oil supplies, assuming a historically accurate map!

Might also try to bring the Babs into the alliance, giving me a lock on the whole mid-eastern region....then I could call a vote just to see.... OTOH, the Zulu have some heinous riches in south africa....lossa diamonds...YUM!

Ahhh....I'll admit it....I'm a Civ-junkie!

As to exactly when to make the call re: what victory you wanna try for....the short answer, for me, is "as late in the game as possible."

I try to keep every option open....keep my relations good so I can call on strong allies in case someone gets rowdy....keep my army strong in case it appears I cannot win the space race...I know that I can level the playing field if I level the city he's currently building some or other module in...heh...all of the above, for as long as I'm able....

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Hey Gamer! And you're absolutely right! I try to present the ideas that occur to me in the most extreme variant I can think of, in order to better illustrate its total effect, however, in practice, I seldom go to such extremes myself.

Perfect example: In the game I tested this out on (Marla's Earth Map, French, all proper starting positions), I took one look at Europe and how compressed it was, and knew that 5-6 tiles north of me would be the Germans, and I could already see part of the Italian peninsula, so I knew the Romans were just out of sight. Considering that, I pasted them early and hard....but I had a total of five near neighbors (Rome, Germany, Greece, Russia, England) and there was simply no way I could have fought them all....so I oscillated first between Germany and Rome (Berlin from Germany, Veii from Rome), and while I was fighting them, I was building early game infrastructure and making my way toward map making (with an eye toward developing an African presence and dominating England--who has been my punching bag this game). But even adding England to the mix (and I didn't start in on England until I had officially entered the Middle Ages), that still left two of my near-neighbors totally unmolested.

As it turns out, Germany served as a perfect buffer state between me and Russia, and expanded aggressively into Finland/Norway, but Russia, being bigger, got the majority of the space up that way. So...in order to bolster my own position, I made nice with the Germans, cutting them in on some free French wines and a couple of techs until I had won them over, then wooed them with an RoP agreement and began helping guard the border against Russian aggression. Twice they have attacked my little German buddies! The first time, we beat them back but gained no ground on them. The second time though, we decided to take them to task for it, and because of it, Germany has doubled in size! (I have been stripping out most of Russia's Finland/Norway holdings and either selling or gifting the cities to the Germans to bolster them). I figure one more city, and then take Moscow to force-move their palace further from the German border, and we'll be set....Germany and Russia will be about the same size, and the Germans can keep them in check for me, freeing me to focus on North Africa and Egypt....

-=Vel=-

[LordLynch64]

Ahmen Brother I too love domination via the puppet strings. The delecate dance between support of a nation and Domination of that Nation.

I love It

[Arrian]

The thrill of victory

I've won by culture (anticlimatic in the extreme) and spaceship. Domination is something I could have done several times, but conquest just gets tedious after a while. Once I have access to all of the resources, I just don't care to keep fighting. I may, however, give it a try in my current game (still on Monarch), but I'll be building the spaceship, too, so that remains an option if I get too bored with playing with my Tanks.

As for the Diplo victory, I've only held 2 votes (in different games). I lost the first, and the second was a draw. I guess I'm just not very generous to my fellow civs (imagine that!). The UN is definitely under the category of "build it so you don't lose" for me.

Vel - about the oscillation strategy... are you advocating a near-constant state of war? I would think you've gotta take some rather sizeable breaks for infrastructure and to reset war weariness. My games usually involve an ancient war, then concentration on infrastructre, then a late middle ages or early industrial war (or 2), and a modern war (usually involving people on another continent). I would imagine oscillation would work very well with militaristic civs (Aztec, Japanese and Germans come to mind...particularly the Japanese).

Thoughts on the effects of the new 40 (instead of 32) turn tech cap?

-Arrian

p.s. I hate my modem. It downloaded 590k of the patch and just stopped, and refused to budge. I'm gonna have to have a friend w/dsl download it and burn a CDROM for me.