The great library

[arborman]

Ok, I'm playing Americans at regent level on a standard map with about 80% water (I think, it was random, and I've found all the civs with huge unexplored chunks of the map. So...
I rushed straight to the great library, trading and researching along the way. Once I had it built, I reduced research spending to ten percent, and am raking in the cash. Every time I get a tech from my "alchemists" I immediately go and trade it to everyone else for any techs I don't have. So far I've managed to keep at least a one tech lead and concentrate on building city and military. I am also rolling in cash. While I have managed to pick up a couple other wonders along the way like the colossus, I think the library is the key to an ancient era domination of the tech race. Any comments?

[eMarkM]

I think the library is the key to an ancient era domination of the tech race

It's nice to have the GL, but not a requirement. I think it's overrated. Below Regent, it's useless, because you're likely to be tech leader and will get no benefit from it (ok, the culture it gives is very nice). On Regent, it's certainly something to shoot for, but its effects get cancelled pretty quickly and it only works for civs you're in contact with. Still good to have.

I've been playing Monarch games--where the GL would really come in handy because of the AI gets tech edge early--but I've never been able to build it (or any ancient wonder for that matter). This hasn't prevented me from winning or even catching up in tech race. What you can't get from GL, you take by invasion and forcing techs from AI through tribute in peace negotiations. The Vassal strategy. Others you can just flat out buy. In the early game you can set science to 10%, have a huge cash horde, and just buy the tech you don't have from others. This has worked for me until I get parity.

GL is nice to have, but very difficult to build at the higher levels. The AI beelines for it. But you can over come this w/ trading and tribute.

e

[sophist]

The Great Library might expire quickly in time, but consider this. It doesn't expire until you get Education. So avoid Education . And furthermore, it's not the number of turns, or the number of game years you get out of it. It's the number of techs and the money. In my games (Monarch), I've gotten a good 10 or more techs out of the Great Library before it breaks. And I've sold every one of those plus the deeper techs that I could research (because I knew I'd get the shallower ones for free). That's a pretty substantial effect, when properly used.

[eMarkM]

In my games (Monarch), I've gotten a good 10 or more techs out of the Great Library before it breaks.

Believe me, if I could, I would build GL on Monarch. It is an important early wonder. I just can't and have been able to overcome not having what many say is a "must have" wonder.

sophist, how are you managing to build the GL on Monarch? I basically ignore all the early wonders on this level (and up) because I get too frustrated when I'm 3 turns away and another one builds it ahead of me. Nothing ticks me off more seeing all that production down the drain. You just can't afford to waste that many shields in the early going so I end up not even trying.

Do you go w/ civ that has advances close to the one that gives you GL? Conquer civ that has it? How have you managed to build it?

e

[Shaka II]

eMarkM: I built GL in last Monarch game as French, which may have helped having more industrious workers. City was the capital with hills and plains (pretty slow growing, but high production). But the amazing thing was that I was so far behind in tech that I got about 20 techs (10 of which were all at once) before it was obsolete. It allowed me to achieve parity in the game where it would have been hopeless, as I had no early contact with other civs.

Arborman: Previous game at Regent, I built GL and didn't get a single tech! This is because it was built late (350AD) and had no life left. The latter game, I built it circa 550BC. So, it's usefulness depends on how early you can build it.

Present Emperor game, I (Babylonians) built Colossus and got beat out on all the others until SETI. In early game, I was too busy Rexing and trying to make vassals out of the Persians (I took 2 cities then asked for peace when they approached with about 10 immortals). When I tried for the midgame wonders like Sistene/Bach/Newton, even with a head start by building hidden palace or palace, I still lost to AI. Selling tech has it's downside, which is some of those civs will beat you out to the wonder. So, if I can afford it I don't trade the tech for the wonder I am building.

The AI would not trade coal and iron for me to boost production, until I was able to trade Rocketry for both. So now, I am all set for Space victory, but the entire game was trading tech to stay alive. I have no local coal, iron, oil or rubber. Good thing I have Uranium.

[MarshalN]

I never found the real need to get the GL. I usually play on regent or monarch, and I haven't really been able to build the GL most of the time since the AI beat you to it (usually) and I don't like dumping that many shields into a great wonder that early. I usually keep pace with AI with techs, not leading though until the middle ages hit.

I think it's somewhat overrated, and depends on your playing style as well. I think some other wonders are much more useful.

[Egoist]

I have gotten the GL in some of my monarch games. A couple of times i was lucky enough to be close to the civ that built it and I quickly captured it during my planned ancient era war. Once from the Germans and once from the French i think. It was rather easy as well since those civs tend to be well,.. not so good during ancient times (not the best abilities and no ancient UU).

I have also managed to build it myself at monarch just to see if i could pull it off. It's easy if the map cooperates a bit .

I just look for a spot not too far from my capitol with some nice hills and grasslands (with extra shield) plant a settler in the sweetest spot so that i get maximum shields asap. And then i send in my workers to quickly build mines + roads. Start working on a palace or different wonder there and go straight for literature (trade tech from the AI but don't shop around all your techs if you dont have to. Same goes for contacts. I never trade away contacts unless i really have to or if i know the AI civs will meet soon. Might as well grab a couple of coins). If a different civ gets literature before you do quickly trade for it and change the building to the GL (you should have saved up enough shields to finish it within a couple of turns). The trick is to make sure you know when you'll get the tech so you can plan building GL and have it finished before AI gets it's dirty hands on it. You can also use your capitol for this if it's in a sweet production spot.

It is possible to get GL but you have to plan for it and when you are saving up all those shields you obviously arent building settlers. I don't like to go for GL most of the time because it forces you into that tech tree.

Btw, i think most AI civs don't go for monarchy so i'm more than happy to go get it and trade it for all the other expensive techs. Seems the AI would even sell off some vital organs just to be able to wear the crown.

I myself like to go for the pyramids and manage to get it all the time (haven't tried emperor or diety yet though). Same story as for GL only much easier to pull off.

The following start has been working nicely for me: Build lots of warriors at the start! (At game start I usually go: warrior (x3), settler or warrior (x4), settler if i have 2 grasslands with shields within the city radius) just build mines with your worker on those tiles and your settler should be finished within about 2 turns after reaching pop 3 (this is with a non-industrious worker btw). Send those warriors in every possible direction inmediately without keeping a garisson in your capital (or second city) unless barbarians force you to and keep on going with those guys. Quickly explore a big portion of the map and you are bound to meet the other civs. Trade their techs and capture some workers. (For some reason you can buy more workers from a civ for 30 gold if you have been at war with them). You will know where all the relevant civs are. You can control the early contacts and get all the early techs easy. You will get a lot of nice stuff from huts and barbarian villages. And more importantly you will have a lot of knowledge of the map (is it just me or does this increase the value of your world map during trades?). Then i will let the terrain, strategic resources, bonus resources and luxuries decide what the best places for my cities are coz they have to be smarter than me .

I don't know if this all obvious to you veterans but i'm kinda new to this. I played some civ way back and took a glance at civ2 when it was released. I skipped smac and ctp. But civ3 just owns me.

cheers

[Arrian]

eMarkM - I'm with you about wonder building on Monarch. I pretty much don't even try for the ancient era wonders. I spend the ancient era beating up on a neighbor to catch up in tech and gain territory (and, more importantly, any luxury resources he had). My goal is to catch up in time for the middle age wonders (sistine, copernicus, et al.). I have been able to pull that off in the game I've got going now. I, too, originally tried for some of the ancient wonders and got REALLY frustrated when I was left with a wonder 2 or 3 turns from completion that I had to turn into a colleseum.

Shaka - Impressive work on your Emperor game - building an empire without iron or coal is really hard. I probably wouldn't have played that one out. Good on you.

-Arrian

[sophist]

It doesn't have anything to do with the civ I pick, though industrious helps. I don't really do the REX thing. At most I will build 2 settlers out of my capital before going to 2 garrisons and a temple. Then I start on the pyramids. I also develop the area around my capital (hence the industrious help) with my initial settler to maximize my production. Usually I can time it so that I discover Literacy about 5 turns or so before having to switch from the Pyramids (usually building around 600 or 700BC). Sometimes it's been just 2 turns, other times it's been 10 or 15 turns. It all depends. I think, though, that building the Great Library or the Pyramids basically means foregoing the full-blown REX strategy. It works fine for me because I generally do an ancient era war in the late BC/early AD period that seems to make up for my slower expansion early. I build up a pretty sizable army (the previous improvements around my capital help) and then blitz a convenient target.

Generally I keep my research at the bare minimum necessary to get Literature, the Wheel, Ceremonial Burial, and Iron Working, so I have cash on hand to create embassies. When I do, I see that the AIs are still in settler-building mode when I start my Pyramids. Not only do I have the advantage of an early start, I also have the advantage that my capital is size 5 or 6 while theirs is a 2 or 3 when they start the wonder building.

Originally posted by eMarkM

sophist, how are you managing to build the GL on Monarch? I basically ignore all the early wonders on this level (and up) because I get too frustrated when I'm 3 turns away and another one builds it ahead of me. Nothing ticks me off more seeing all that production down the drain. You just can't afford to waste that many shields in the early going so I end up not even trying.

Do you go w/ civ that has advances close to the one that gives you GL? Conquer civ that has it? How have you managed to build it?

e

[arborman]

Maybe the race for great library should be refined to racing when you have a very limited land base. The game I'm playing has huge tracts of water, so I settles two cities and had to start a war with the iroquois to get any more at all. During the war, I met and traded straight to the gl, and building it freed up the money and resources to finish off the iroquois after about 300 years. I only managed to get iron a little while ago, and I still have no saltpeter, so I think I'll be in trouble soon. However, I did come up with one nifty trick when you have a narrow landmass between you and an enemy.
I started a little war with the aztecs, who were at the other end of my narrow continent. At one point, it narrows to one space wide. I had two cities along that strip, one for defense and one to sacrifice. As soon as the aztecs were piled up and ready to take the outside city, I called up the greeks and sold it to them for money, tech etc. (The greeks were good friends with us both, and now they wanted to have my children). After a couple turns, the aztecs got frustrated and declared war on the greeks in order to get at me. The greeks brought in two other civs, and the Aztecs sued for peace with me. Now the whole world is at war except me, and I am cheerfully pulling ahead. If I had any saltpeter, I might have a shot, but I'm looking for it so I can make a surgical strike somewhere. My question is, was my giving the city to the greeks some sort of frowned upon tactic (an exploit) or was it just good diplomacy?

[Shaka II]

Arborman - Sounds to me like a stroke of genious. I can only guess that the AI would not be smart enough to know that they were duped, but you never know. Unethical or an exploit? Perhaps in real life, but not in Civ III.

Arrian - I should have mentioned that I did get iron to build factories in 4 of biggest cities and when iron deal expired, I was able to get coal to build coal plants in same cities. But I didn't get both until modern age. Needless to say, I built at least 10 more workers and railroaded my entire territory in 20 turns. I beat Germans to launch pad by perhaps a turn or two (my spy in Berlin said they had 9 of 10 SS components and what appeared to be an ICBM aimed at SS party lounge in Babylon).