OCC space race win on Monarch

[ToeTruck]

I imagine that there are a lot of OCCers doing a better than I in Civ3, but I thought I'd share my experience nonetheless.

I started this game under Monarch not expecting to play OCC, but found a rivered site at the ocean delta with two gold hills and two furs...so I decided to try OCC.

My 1902 launch is nothing exceptional, but it convinced me that some *way* early OCC landings are possible even under deity.

First off, a couple of confessions:
1) I considered this game a learning exercise with frequent re-loads. For the most part, I reloaded only when I was trying a "what if" scenario, but a couple of times I just said "shoot, I'm having fun" and loaded up.

2) Twice (with Buffalo and Dijon, I think) I accepted cultural assimilation and then sold the cities back to the original owners. How that effected the game I'm not sure, but I was already at 5000+ gold so I don't think it made a big difference.

Secondly, a couple of observations:
1) It seems to me that a viable OCC site must be at a river delta.

2) Luxuries and resources are nice, but not necessary long-term; trade can compensate. Early game resources like iron and horses are nice, but I got by with two fur.

2) The AI is so inclined to share tech that there's no reason to hold back. I shared every tech as soon as I got it (except for those that led to a wonder or SS component I needed).

3) Does anyone know if you can get a Golden Age with only one city? I never got one.

4) Colonies can really pay off. The AI doesn't care much if you sneak in an Aluminum or Uranium colony in the late game.

Third, things I will never, ever do again:
1) I built a bunch of forts hoping to convince the AI that I had a strong defensive position. I must have wasted 30+ turns fending off attacks that used my forts against me.

2) I spent way too much money ensuring Mutual Protection Pacts. At one point, I had agreements with 5 of my 7 opponents; two turns later, I lost all my trading partners when the game degenerated into a major war.

Last, one question:
1) Which civ-specific attributes are best for OCC? I don't think I'll play the Aztecs again.

Any comments would be welcome; respond to what you want.

Thanks.

- TT

P.S. I've attached a zip file with the 1900ad save and the 3400bc save (I forgot to save the 4000bc game).

[ToeTruck]

Oops.

I forgot the file.

-TT

[pchang]

Try Babylonians for OCC. I think they are much better suited than Aztechs. Also, I think it is perfectly acceptable to accept defecting cities if you sell them immediately. However, I would not have sold them to the original Civ. Just for fun, I would have sold them to Civs far away (or whoever had the most to pay).

[solo]

Nice going Toe Truck!

This is the first spaceship win in OCC that I've noticed here, and there ARE more problems to solve to accomplish this in CivIII, even with such a fine starting location as the one you describe. A river nearby is great, but I think access to the ocean is almost vital, unless it is a one-continent map.

Selling off absorbed cities is perfectly legit, as far as I can see, too. I also agree with pchang that the Babylonians are probably best suited for OCC games, especially at higher levels, where the 1/2 cost religious and scientific improvements help you keep up with the boosted AI production.

I am trying an OCC game now on deity, and so far have managed to beat the AI to Colossus, Copernicus, and Newton's, but I missed out on the less vital Shakespeare's. As of 1070 AD, I have about a 2 tech lead over the closest AI and have just entered the Industrial Age, but I'm worried about being able to build all the spaceship parts quickly enough later with them hot on my trail. Another problem might be securing a reliable supply of aluminum. Without one of my own (quite likely, with only 1 city) I may have to share the revealing tech before I would like to. The AI are very fast at everything at deity level.

[ToeTruck]

Yep, the Aztecs kind of stink for OCC

Thanks for the suggestion pchang.

The only reason I considered playing a militaristic civ was that I hoped to get a couple of leaders out of it, but that never came to be. I, too, think the babs will do better.

Have you had any luck in OCC?

-TT

[ToeTruck]

What do you need for OCC?

Thanks solo.

I also started a babs game with the OCC site between an inland lake and a coastal square. Not going well so far, but we'll see.

It seems to me that the keys for OCC success are:

Site qualities:
1) Access to fresh water for irrigation and a 6+ city without an aqueduct.
2) Adjacency to a coastal square for Colossus.
3) Early gold or another commercial producing bonus/luxury resource.
4) Access to at least one luxury resource to avoid the need for an early garrison. Maybe not, but I found it helpful.

Wonders (great and small):
1) Copernicus's Observatory
2) Netown's University
3) Theory of Evolution
4) Shakespeare's Theater (maybe not, I could have gotten by without it)
5) Appolo Program

Diplomacy:
1) Make contact every turn or two. At least give a map.
2) Don't hold a tech unless there's a wonder at stake.
3) Once you give a tech to one civ, give it to everyone else. No price is too small.

That's where I'm at; any comments would be appreciated.

I also built Sistine Chapel (primarily to keep it out of my opponents hands) and the Intelligence Agency (which I never used).

Good luck in your game, solo. I'd be interested in your comments on how the AI plays OCC at Deity.

- TT

[pchang]

OCC

To be honest, I only try OCC once I get bored with the other ways of winning. I haven't tried OCC with this game yet. Even though I bought it 1 month ago, I just haven't had time to play it as much as I want. I'm still having fun with the crush the AIs in the ancient age w/ my Mongol (well actually Persian, Aztec, Iriquois, Roman, etc.) hordes method of winning.

[solo]

Toe Truck,

I agree with what you say is needed for success in OCC, with a minor difference of opinion about access to fresh water. I count that as a very nice to have, but not essential item, since an aqueduct can always be built. True too, that nearby rivers are really useful for their extra trade.

Another point is that coastal access is almost a requirement, since for overseas trade a harbor is necessary, and with only one city you're limited to a coastal spot for locating it.

In deity, OCC is particularly tough. I've tried it several times so far, and in the first few games I was surrounded quickly by AI cities, and even though I did everything to keep my neighbors happy, sooner or later I was attacked and wiped out, even though I had walls, a barracks and about 10 good city defenders. Just seems that if the AI smell weakness nearby they attack no matter what.

So in my latest attempt, I started out by rushing the Zulus, with whom I share a continent on a tiny map. (The Iroqoius and Americans share the other one.) By taking a few of their cities early, I put them on the defensive and was able to extract a lot of cash and techs when negotiating for peace. It looks to me that early agression is the only way to ensure survival with just one city. Early aggression also gave me breathing room and I was able to establish six colonies on various luxuries and resources to help supplement the 3 gems near my city. I very much agree with you that colonies are vital to have any success.

Another thing I tried after meeting the other 2 AI was to found new cities near the ones the Zulus had left and to immediately trade them to the other AI, hoping to create a buffer between myself and the "furious" Zulus. I know this is technically not allowed in OCC, to have more than one city, but for CivIII I think an exception should be made to such a strict interpretation of the rule, and instead make the requirement that one may not end a turn with more than the one, original city. This would allow one to trade away cities aborbed by culture or those purposely created for buffering and trade, as I have tried in my game. Incidently, the buffering idea was not entirely successful, as the Zulus have taken two cities I made and traded to the Americans. Only the Iroqoius, who are quite dominant in this game, have held off the Zulus.

One problem I am having at this stage in the game, is that I am losing my colonies to expanding borders of AI cities. My six colonies are now down to only 3, and those three are now in a cramped position, as the AI continue to found cities wherever they can outside of my borders. Blocking their settlers with units is only a temporary fix, but a real weakness of OCC is the severe handicap of having a very limited national border. Colonies have no borders at all and are quite vulnerable.

Another problem is that just one city, even if loaded up with all science wonders and improvements, may not generate enough science to keep ahead of the AI for long at deity. The only reason I am ahead a bit now is because the AI have researched all of the off-path techs, which I only acquire when through trade with them. Right now at size 12, my city with Colossus, Copernicus and Newtons has not given me the 4 turn advance rate that I feel is required for success. In CIvII, many of the things we had to enhance science, such as trade routes and their hefty bonuses are gone. Superhighways are also gone. Instead of producing hundreds of beakers, my CivIII city is only giving me about 150 at this stage in the game. It just could be that at higher levels, there just isn't enough that can be done to boost one city's science high enough.

I will get back to my game as see how it continues, but I suspect now that I should have been even more aggressive early in the game, the only time the human can have the military advantage at deity OCC.

[ToeTruck]

solo,

I agree with you that fresh water might not be a requirement, but a meandering river is a *very* nice thing to have. A good river can generate 15+ commerce a turn which I suspect is needed to keep pace at deity.

Plus, a river lets you build hydroplant and eventually a nuclear plant. Since you can't rush the SS components, I think you need to be producing 80-100 by the end.

And, I definitely agree about coastal access. I didn't think about the harbor trade benefit because the game I played turned out to be a single continent. Thinking back, though, I don't believe I lost any trade when I was at war with my large American neighbor. Without a harbor, I would have lost both luxury and strategic resources.

Regarding deity, the games I've played have been utter disasters under OCC. By the time I make contact, I'm already down 4+ techs. Maybe your aggressive approach will take care of this, I'll have to try it.

I do know that in one of my games as the Babylonians, I attacked and destroyed an English city the turn after it settled on my border. Despite the fact that the English had me *way* outnumbered militarily, they sued for peace. Plus, the victory was with my bowman so I entered a golden age. It held me afloat for a little while, but once it ended, I was again behind in tech.

Keep me posted with what you learn. I know a lot of folks only play OCC once they get bored with the main game, but I like to start of with these type of challenges. I figure it improves my game as a whole, plus I like the fact that an OCC game can be completed in a few sittings.

- TT

P.S. Also, the most science I've gotten from a single city has been about 300. That gave me about 6-8 turn per tech at best.

One thing I considered was pumping a couple dozen workers into a city as scientists and letting them starve, but that doesn't get me more that 100 science or so. There has to be a better way to max your sciences.

[solo]

TT,

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly about the benefit of rivers, and on second thought perhaps they ARE vital at higher levels to produce enough science.

I also like OCC because games are not interminable, but because of the significant changes in CivIII, I am beginning to think that perhaps a better approach for this game would be to have a new approach, where 5 cities are allowed (FCC for those who like abbreviations.)

When limited to just 1 city in CivIII, there are too many requirements that must be fulfilled to have a viable start.

1) A coastal delta location with a good set of luxuries seems to be a must for any realistic chance of success.

2) With only one city, several small wonders such as Wall Street and Battlefield Medicine are not available at all. If not used for themselves, these are useful for pre-building wonders and/or spaceship parts. Later in the game, the AI will be using more than one city to be building space ship parts made available by the discovery of a single techs, but with 1 city, simultaneous construction is not possible.

3) I have not used armies yet, but isn't there a requirement of having four barracks (i.e. 4 cities) in order to make an army? If so, with OCC, one can not build armies, which would be very handy for defense.

4) At higher levels, a considerable tech lead would be needed to build every thing fast enough to beat the AI to launch. This tech leads was easy enough to achieve in CivII, where the AI were such slow learners even on deity level.

5) Finally, with only 1 city, it appears almost certain that one must begin by subduing one or more neighboring AI by force, something that never came into play in the CivII OCC games.

6) I've already mentioned the difficulties I've had maintaining colonies without the help of protective borders. The AI sneaks in and builds an adjacent city, and zap, they are instantly lost! Not much area can be controlled by only one city.


With a five city approach, there is much more strategic flexibility. The challenge would be to find the best locations for each one, and the quickest way to a launch, without a game evolving into a pop-rush ICC approach, just because this works the best. There are many more options available, if requirements are spread among a few cities and just about any start could be used for interesting comparison games. I think 5-city games are the way to go with CivIII, and that they would still preserve most of the characteristics of OCC play that make it so much fun. What do you and others think?

[dainbramaged13]

Good job, TT, I have also completed an oCC, a diplo win in 1812 for the first tournament. The luxuries were actually key in that instance, because I had 4 ivories left to trade, which means a lot of techs because you get the tech permanently but can trade the ivory again for another tech in twenty turns. so thats normally about 4 techs per twenty turns which is realy helpful in the beginning of the game b4 you have the great library and after it expires, until you start needing lots of resources (it took me forever to get coal, i had to wait for a world war for a coal position to open up so i could go claim it. Also, when doing an OCC i found it really useful to never build workers until I get up to size 20 (city radius) and then start churning them out to build and chop forests in 1 turn (extra ten prod. per turn if you have 6 workers and industrial strength)

The only possible way i got by in that game was diplomacy diplomacy diplomacy! aside from my 4 ivories, i played a middle man in the tech trading scheme. I would pay an insane amount of money to get techs from the greeks and persians, then sell them to the chinese, aztechs, egyptians, and zulus. It was a lucrative trade, at any rate It became less of an efficient strategy when 3 of those four got wiped out by the greeks

Aside from using all your workers that you get once you reach size 20 to chop wood, use it to completely max out the production by building mines in every square in which they can be built without making the city decrease in size (1 or 0 food per turn growth is acceptable)

If you trade with everyone, you never have to go to war, because they'll all always be happy with you (it worked for me). However, NEVER sign mutual protection pacts! That means youre commited to war if it ever happens and war in an occ is the thing you want to avoid at all costs! If you think you can fenaegle one far-off empire to attack your neighbor without declaring war on your neighbor, this is key, because then they will raze the cities and you will get your terrirory back (maybe it was just me, but i was incredibly lucky to get 2 uraniums in my outer borders just after the greeks razed a city that had both of them

[Auk]

I'm playing my first OCC game at the moment, on monarch. although I'm doing quite well I can see some big problems on the horizon, especially keeping up with the AIs on techs... I think that a spaceship victory is going to require some sneeky capital razing in later game, and a cultural victory is already looking tricky.

[solo]

Well, I've continured my deity OCC game and was also able to build Theory of Gravity, but soon after I lost 2 of my 3 remaining colonies and things just turned downhill from there. My rate of research also faded while that of the AI sped up and after that it was all over. Though I was barely first into the Modern Age, the others caught up and surpassed me quickly and I was only able to build 3 SS parts before being beaten by the Iroquois. With a few changes earlier in the game, I think I might have done much better, but probably still not good enough. Near the end of the game I was DWARFED by the AI in every department, science, production, power, and even culture, a mere sliver on the histograph. Because of difficulties mentioned above, I believe a SS win at deity with OCC is probably out of reach. So of course, I will keep trying! Good luck to the others taking their shot at this!

dainbramaged13,

I did not build the UN, but might have been able to first. In this game there was a realistic chance for that, but I was aiming for a traditional OCC win by launch. Nice going in your game, as any OCC win in CivIII deserves a lot a of credit. I agree about diplomacy and am always trading, but avoiding MPPs and requests for maps.

Auk,

Good luck, and you can be sure about that horizon, too!

[ToeTruck]

OCC Rules and Best Victory Dates

I managed another OCC Space Win at Monarch the other day; this one at 1846 as the Persians. My starting position wasn't nearly as good, but I had the advantage of a couple games' experience.

I've attached a Zip file if anyone is interested.

I've also noticed a couple of other threads regarding OCC wins at Emperor and Deity. Whew...that sounds tough. My experience with Deity OCC has not been exactly satisfactory.

Is anyone interested in formalizing a set of rules for OCC?

In Civ2, most of the fortnight games were played under Standard-Raging-Deity. What else should be specified?

And, does it make sense to keep a record of best dates for the various victory type? By civ? By board size? Ergh, that's a lot of permutations.

I think I'll start another thread for those records, just for the fun of it.

Solo, how are your games going? Any thoughts on good OCC-Deity strategies?

And, anyone having any success using the Expansionist civs for OCC. At deity, I thought they might pay off with early contact and/or early huts. Just an idea.

- TT

[Auk]

One thing I find VERY annoying is that it appears that you can only have one great leader at a time. I thought I had a cunning strategy for a deity win there :-(