Uncooperative maps, any suggestions?

[theohall]

Started a game last week as the Babylonians. Small world, random continents, random time.

Turns out, the randomness was a major issue in terms of expansion being effective.

Wound up on 2nd largest continent with the Romans and Greeks. Starting position - no rivers or lakes within 10 tiles. Further expansion of the continent revealed only one river and a single, one-tile lak on the entire continent with the river being attached to same lake and only 5 tiles long.

What's the problem? Only 2 cities on the continent were even capable of being irrigated for a LONG time.

This severely hampers city growth (for the eventual switch to republic) and the whole despot pop-rush strategies.

Meanwhile, the largest continent was buried in rivers which the French exploited long before they were even discovered.

Any suggestions on how to deal with this kind of map?

[Monoriu]

1. Irrigation under despotism is quite useless, unless on food resource tiles or on flood plains. So why worry so much about it?

2. Irrigating 10 tiles doesn't take a long time, considering that it will be a while before you reach Monarchy or Replublic when irrigation will become useful.

3. Think about the plus side: if you can control the areas around the sole lake and river system on the continent, the other 2 AI civs will be deprived of irrigation: a major advantage to you.

4. However, if the sole source of fresh water is blocked from the majority of your cities by hills and mountains, consider re-starting.

Suggestion:

1. Secure the freshwater source by building a city next to it.

2. Build a chain of cities leading from the freshwater source to the rest of your empire so that the AI can't build cities in between.

3. Start irrigating the tiles near the river, and build the irrigation corridor back to your main empire NOW.

4. Make sure that the AI civs can't connect to the irrigation system by not irrigating the tiles next to their borders

[theohall]

Should've added a mountain chain deprived over 3/4 of the continent from the lone fresh water source.

Being on a small map, securing the source and having such a small area (1/4 of a continent on a small map isn't much space) in which to build wasn't much help.

The problem was maintaining population levels outside of that area even after reaching Monarchy and/or Republic.

Meanwhile, the French are taking over the world.

Restarting seemed like the most sensible solution, but was just wondering if anyone had any other ideas. Thanks.

[cassembler]

I only look for irrigation if I have a buttload of plains. Grassland is fine without it, but plains really need it. If I have 3-5 grassland around a city, at least up to the middle age, that city can be a production powerhouse (a few mines and bam!). It should be able to churn out units pretty nicely.

[Bblue]

Yeah, Some maps can be a real pain. But sometimes these can turn into the best games, keeping in mind that your not going to set any high score if you do manage to pull off a win .

There is usually a way to pull out some kind of victory (on Monarach or less) or at least have a shot at it IF you can choose the right stadagy for the given map right at the beginning and you get a lucky break or two later in the game. Granted the method to victory may not be the one you prefer, but in a game with a bad start... take what u can get


For the case listed above I see 3 possible ways to win.

1) The least likely, If your capital is an a very good location for shields and is on the river, there is the possibility of getting a cultural victory with 20,000 points in a single city, but you need to grab some early wonders and 'pod boom' your capital to size 12 as soon as it can support that many without Anarchy.

2) Be nice to the french and early rush all you nieghbors on your contient, then try to play catch-up with the French.

3) Form an allaince with everyone on your contient, trade techs 'freely' with them. Try anything to slow France down without invading it (ie. trade embargos; priviteers; not tradeing techs, luxuries, and resources; and 'hit and raze tactics' if you do go to war with her). Then try to last till you can build the UN. Build it and have your long time allies vote for you. My guess would be this is the most likely way to pull out some kind of victory, but be prepared for some major defensive warfare.

Let us know how it goes

[theohall]

Unfortunately, I'd turned off Diplomatic Victory when starting this one, because those types of victories were too easy in all the prior games.

Looks like I'll have to try the 20,000 point cultural thing.

French have been the most friendly because of the early rush on the Greeks and Romans turning them into vassals. Rome had the fresh water city, so I took it and moved my palace there while building the FP on the opposite end of the continent.

Current plan - use espionage to find where the Wonders are and take those cities, then defend them with all of my abilities. Taking those cities should definitely help the culture thing and might even let me get footholds among the Russians and French. Don't really want to tick off the French, but gotta take those Culture points that Wonders generate.

Definitely plan to take the one city, then sue for peace.

FYI - as others have stated, production is not a problem on this map. The problems lie solely in maintaining population and generating income due to the severe lack of strategic resources on the continent. Just lots of horses, one cow, and one wheat on an entire continent.

Mines and roads are everywhere for those interested about the production/commerce issues. Commerce is an issue due to the lack of population.

Waging war - build up the necessary forces...take what I need...then disband forces other than those absolutely needed for defense. This is purely because of the commerce issues. Hopefully, taking some cities on the other continents will begin to alleviate this problem.

[Auren]

Originally posted by theohall
Current plan - use espionage to find where the Wonders are and take those cities, then defend them with all of my abilities. Taking those cities should definitely help the culture thing and might even let me get footholds among the Russians and French. Don't really want to tick off the French, but gotta take those Culture points that Wonders generate.

I think that captured wonders don't generate culture, only ones that you build yourself. Can somsone confirm?

[Bblue]

Correct. Although caputured wonders still give you thier benefit they produce no culture.

As for this particular game... looks like choice 2 is the best option remianing

[HugoHillbilly]

Originally posted by theohall
Current plan - use espionage to find where the Wonders are and take those cities, then defend them with all of my abilities. Taking those cities should definitely help the culture thing and might even let me get footholds among the Russians and French. Don't really want to tick off the French, but gotta take those Culture points that Wonders generate.

Dont waste your gold!!! F7 will tell you which cities all the wonders are located in, espionage is not needed here!

( President Bush our intricate spy network has finally procured that The Pyramids are located in Egypt...!)

[MarshalN]

See, on a small map this is still doable...

I started a game on a huge map, continents. I started out on my own island....except that the island can hold about 10 cities max, and that's it. By the time I got mapmaking and got the lighthouse (nothing was within galley distance without the lighthouse) everyone else was in the middle ages because they all traded. I tried playing more, doing a military strike to get a foothold on the large continent (with Germans, French, and English there). After a little while though, the cities I captured were both absorbed by the rival civs because I just don't have enough cities for a high culture rating, and the two captures cities were quite far from my capital. I did the rush building temple thing and had enough units in there, no good

So I can still try for the 20000 culture thing (100000 civ culture is out of the question). I had no strategic resources though on my little island, and that was really hampering me. At the same time, the AIs got a huge continent and are still building cities like crazy (I retired to see just how far behind I was). I just got bored of that game and restarted because it got to a point where all my land was improved upon and I don't want to IFE -- so nothing to do really.

Anyway, the point is, sometimes the map starting location can kill your game, especially if you play on a huge map where the difference between a good island and bad island is huge. You start on a small island and you're basically screwed because everyone else have basically unlimited space for expansion

[Magician]

Originally posted by Bblue
Correct. Although caputured wonders still give you thier benefit they produce no culture.

As for this particular game... looks like choice 2 is the best option remianing

Yeah that's right. Can't comes up with a reason tho.

[theohall]

Thanks for all the assistance.

I couldn't find which key said where the Wonders were.

Bummer on captured Wonders not generating culture. If they continue to generate culture for the original creator when the creator owns them, why shouldn't they generate culture when captured? That just doesn't seem to make sense, but I won't waste any time there.

As to catching up to the French - I don't think that's going to be possible. Not enough strategic resources on the continent nor enough fresh water locations to support higher populations. Without the people, there isn't enough commerce. Without commerce, science and supporting a military are very difficult.

[adaMada]

Originally posted by theohall
Bummer on captured Wonders not generating culture. If they continue to generate culture for the original creator when the creator owns them, why shouldn't they generate culture when captured? That just doesn't seem to make sense, but I won't waste any time there.

I think that captured wonders do produce culture -- they just don't get the bonus for having been built for however long...

Might be wrong on that though...

-- adaMada

[Thunderfire]

Bad starting positions will make a game much more difficult. Winning a game on emeror/deity with an excellent starting position is easier compared to a really bad starting position on warlord/regent. Starting on a Jungle Island with no strategic resources or surrounded by hills and mountains is not nice.

[Matthevv]

Some thoughts on this. I find that due to the delay in getting to build hospitals, cities get stuck at 12 for a long time anyway, so you could have a chance to catch up on population with the Civs that have lots of grass. With plenty of hills you can get very productive cities. You also have a lot of horses. That probably means that several other Civs don't have any. Early in the game, all the way up to the invention of tanks, horses rule. With productive cities and a stranglehold on the horse supply you can launch horse armies against those horseless Civs and raze their cities until they too become your vassals. They can then wage a proxy war against the French, which keeps the French busy while your relationship with them stays squeaky clean :-) You don't have to worry too much about defence at home as you have subjugated the others in your continent. With all the mountains, you could also have a lot of iron, so maybe there are Civs that don't have that which could be even easier to beat up. Alternatively, you could trade all the horses and iron and use all the cash to build stuff, giving you a high culture level. Don't forget also that by putting cities next to the sea, and building harbours, you can get two food for each sea square. And don't worry about the tech, just trade for it, and offset the costs by trading it to the other Civs. You want them all to be on a level playing field so the French are kept in check.