Razing With a Human Face

[MarshalN]

Well, Carthaginians threatened Roman existence at one point, especially after Cannae it looked really possible that Hannibal will win. They were scared, and so didn't take any chances.

There are plenty of other examples of things like this happening..... just the way things work back then I guess

[monkspider]

I think the atomic bombs should constitute an attrocity, for all intentions and purposes, the Japs were beaten. After the Soviet invasion of Manchuria, destroying the vast majority of the Japanese army. I agree with many modern historians that the atomic bombs were more a power-play to force Stalin to accept terms more friendly to the western powers. So to that degree, the Japanese were victims. Victims of the Western powers desiring hegemony in eastern-europe. Moreover, it is idiotic to simply place blame for Japan's starting the war making them the total bad guy. There is no bad guy in war, if the western powers hadn't been looting and raping China for centuries Japan wouldn't of been up against a wall where they were forced to either imperialize like the westerners or become a colony. I suggest everyone take a class on East Asian history some time to find out how bad the situation truly was for Japan at the turn of the century.

There are many things I can look upon the history of the United States with pride upon, but the dropping of atomic bombs on Japan is not one of them.

[KrazyHorse]

I almost never raze. I usually starve the city to size 2, arrest development, build settler to disband city and establish a new city in more ideal location. I'm a master at using available space to best effect (at least I think I am ).

[sophist]

In the later game, I try to bombard the city down to just a few pop. That does the same as starving them. Granted, that is only practical if it's the last city on your shopping list...

[MarshalN]

monkspider, I just happen to know a good bit about Japanese/Chinese history myself, and I have to disagree. Japan did not necessarily have to imperialize. The "threat" to them was more imagined than real, largely propagated by the military establishment at the time who wanted a war. They've always dreamed of conquering China, and that time, they did that.

I don't have so much problem with them starting the war than with them looting and pillaging and killing, committing just as many atrocities as anybody, and then come back and portray themselves as a victim. Keep in mind the bombing of Tokyo late in the war killed more people than the two atom bombs combined, but nobody's talking about that. It's just that the atomic bombs are that much more dramatic and that much more efficient that it's used to symbolize the destruction in war.

Nobody's contesting that Japan already lost the war by the time the bombs were dropped. I don't care if American lives are saved, but just standing from an American perspective, they face the certainty of losing more men in a war on Japanese soil, or they have two bombs that can end the war immediately. Granted, Japanese might have been preparing to surrender, but you don't know that for sure. How long would it take? 6 months? What are they going to do in 6 months, sit there and wait for the surrender? Why not end the war when you can? From a military standpoint with the American perspective in view, the use of the atomic bomb was perfectly justified.

From the Japanese perspective... they pretty much lost the war by the time Iwo Jima was invaded. Them holding out for so long with such tenacity gave all the more reason for the American administration to use an atomic bomb, because it showed how costly it could be to subdue the Japanese. It was so obviously a lost cause, but at the same time, they fight on anyway. If you know what actually happened in places like China, Malayasia, Phillipines, and such, where Japanese raped and killed and pillaged many, many innocent lives without real cause, you probably (hopefully) won't be saying what you did. Imperialism practiced by the Brits and the French does not consist in mass killing and mass raping to nearly the same degree, imperialism, Japanese style a la WWII, did consist of all those things.

Before you come out defending the Japanese, go back to the books and read up on both perspectives. Nobody seems to defend the Nazis, but a case for them can equally be made about them being "up against a wall where they were forced to either imperialize or become a colony". I wonder why nobody makes that? Because everyone knows what they did during WWII. What the Japanese did was much less reserached/publicized, and unfortuantely, forgotten by many.

[Frodo_05]

A-BOMBS

Hello,

first of all we KNOW by now that the Japanese tried to negotiate a peace since May 1945 through their Moscow embassy. But the Soviets foiled this attempt, because they were more interested in grabbing something for themselves. So - with the advantage of hindsight - we can today assume the following:

Using the A-BOMBS instead of negotiating with the Japanese lead to:

- the Soviets entering the war in the far East (which was DEMANDED by the USA in Jalta and Potsdam!)
- 100.000s of victims in Hiroshima and Nagasaki
- possibly the communist victory in the Chinese civil war (the Soviet invasion of Manchuria benefitted them immensely) with everything that followed (Great Leap Forward, Culture Revolution)
- the creation of North Korea, the suffering of millions of people there. Not to forget the Korean War with all its victims and suffering.
- the occupation of several Japanese Islands by the Soviets to date

Well, I'm not saying that the people making this decision are responsible for the consequences, because you are always the wiser afterwards.

But maintaining even today that dropping the boms was the right choice is IMO a far shot from reality. Because:

- The REAL winners were the Soviets
- The REAL victims were the Koreans and possibly the Chinese
- The Japanese in general came out somewhat even. The victims in Hiroshima and Nagasaki are a sad story, but pale compared to what happened subsequently in Korea and China
- THE USA gained basically nothing compared to an approach of negotiating. They rather lost some international reputation. The Soviets had their A-BOMBS shortly thereafter and were not impressed.

[Bad Ax]

Since we're way off topic already...

Despite the success of Trinity, none of the upper military brass really expected the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki to work. The suggestion, then, that this attack was intended to intimidate the Soviets isn't such a good one. It is, however, unlikely that the United States would have suffered quite as many casualties invading Japan as they expected. Japanese defenses were highly overstated, and casualty-estimation techniques of the time were crude. It must not be forgotten, though, that US overestimations of Japanese defensive capabilities were largely based on propaganda and demonstrations put on by the Japanese government. In short, they dug their own hole.

It is not unreasonable, however, to suggest that dropping the bomb saved Japanese lives. Certainly these actions ruined two reasonably important cities, but the other options were a US land invasion, which though not as bad as thought, would likely be incredibly destructive to Japanese forces and civilians. Even worse was the other option -- a total blockade of the country, coupled with conventional bombing raids to disable ports and disrupt interior shipping networks. The resulting famine would have killed Japanese civilians exclusively -- their version of a command economy placed virtually all resource control in the hands of the military, which would have first fed its own.

Good publicity after the war can work wonders, though. Virtually nobody today realizes that the Japanese did some absolutely pioneering work on biological warfare, using as test subjects Chinese civilians (whom they considered to be racially inferior). By the same token, nobody raves on and on about the firebombing of Dresden, arguably an atrocity on par with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

As for the Soviets benefitting from the bombing, I can only point out that the Soviet presence in Asia was indeed determined at Yalta and Potsdam, and that they likely would have invaded Manchuria themselves no matter what the outcome in Japan. A negotiated surrender would likely not change what happened in that respect.

As for razing in the game... I've gotten away with this before, and resumed fairly friendly relations with the former owner of the razed site. In one game as the Russians, I razed two English cities and one belonging to France. After a peace treaty and a reasonable period of time, both nations went back to being polite. It is worth noting, though, that I frequently had "gracious" relations with lil' Joanie, but it never improved back to that level after the razing (despite resonably frequent gifts and a MPP).

[MarshalN]

I think Bad Ax basically summed up what I'd like to say.

And on the point of American casualties. Like I said, American casualties or not, the bombs would've saved lives no matter what. The fire bombing on Tokyo in (if I remember correctly) June that year took about 200-300 thousand lives, much more than the two atom bombs combined. Nobody seems to remember that. Like I said, the atom bomb is just that much more efficient and dramatic, and it's the dramatic aspect I think that does the job.

And he's absolute right on the part about biological warfare. It's well documented (but little known) that the Japanese had a few labs in China that did some really nasty stuff that you probably don't want to see. Suffice to say, those people who were experimented upon definitely had worse suffering than anyone who died in Hiroshima or Nagasaki. Imgaine having your arms melted.....

Or, for that matter, the systematic raping of women who had their uterus removed. They were sex machines (literally) for the enjoyment of the soldiers. The Japanese army took the age old tradition of raping who you conquer to a whole new level.

The list is long, which is why I find baffling why anybody will think it was ok for the Japanese to fight the war. As I've said, the atom bomb was just more dramatic, but the human suffering, in the large scheme of things, is not necessarily higher.

Anyway, we're way off topic.

[teknokrat]

Well, I don't know what history books people here use but the situation at the end of the pacific war was analyzed by a historian (famous fellow but the name escapes me for now) in a article in Foreign Policy a few years ago using the Truman archives. These facts emerged;

1. The US knew that Japan was going to surrender (they had broken their code long ago)

2. The A-bombs were dropped to stop Stalin from trying to take some of japan (like germany) and in general to intimidate the russians.

3. The second bomb was a test which makes it an apalling atrocity in my book.

4. There was not going to be any invasion of Japan. The States knew it had one. By delaying this surrender until the bombs were ready American lives had actually been sacrificed by Truman.

Also, I am suprised no one has mentioned the raising of Vietnamese villages during the Vietnam War. Good military strategy never dies...

later

[red_fox]

I love history...
"Those who know history are doomed to watch others repeat it"
I just want to chuck a few thoughts/maybe facts. (history is writen by the winners.
Nazis didnt start concentration camps they just took it to a new level. (Was it the boar war in africa?) This is along the lines of the a-bomb as show thought.
All is fair in love and war.. holds true. they said you cant do this you cant do that... well too bad for you if i win. They told Germany no conventional warfare after WW1 so this led to advancemants in many other military aplications. can you say V1 and V2.
As for causes of war you can justify anything, I need that resource, I need more room, damn ideology i'll get you!they told me I could have it, I used to have it. You get the pic.
And for the record Germans in WW2 were the first to try strategic bombing. It was partially successfull but radar sites were hard to hit. It was the allies who started civilian bombing, hence the V in vengance weapon.
Apearantly germany was within reach of an ICBM capable of hitting New York this one was dubbed the V 30 I belive.
I think that there should be an option of raising your own cities as the russians did in WW2, scorched earth man. If i cant have it noone will. Whether or not you want to act like a russian is up to you.
Warriors are animals. Rape and pillage are payment for an unfathamable horror. WAR. In WW2 the german troops were highly trained. They would kill almost always, somthing like 70% of them were killers. America had like a 30% killer army. Thus Germans were basiclly crazier. America has now implemented viciousness in its training. A significant threat to a civ is its decommisioned wariors, a bunch of messed up socialy "off" killers, you cant just turn that off. Guess what the original hells angels were comprised of?
And as for the second bomb in Japan, one argument for the second one was, that the first could be denied or minimized. How many times have you played a new game and somthing radicle happens and you are like "what the hell was that" well doing it 2x makes it clear as to what is happening much faster"they will get the hint, I promise".
If'a, could'a, would'a.
thats why its history.

[MarshalN]

Actually, Germans started bombing civilians. They first bombed strategic locations/resources, to good success actually. The RAF had a hard time keeping up and were on the brink of collapse... then Hitler decided that it wasn't working and started bombing civilians. Yes, it was a retaliation for a bombing of a German city (I forgot which) by a small group of bombers. It was more of a display of defiance and desperation by the Brits though than an intentional killing of civilians since it was such a small group of bombers -- not much damage done.

The mass bombing started.... but Allies took it to a whole new level that I think is not justified. Dresden is just the most obvious exmaple, but many other cities were hit without good reason, and many people died for it. I'm SURE the firebombings of German cities, or Japanese cities, killed many more than the atomic bomb ever did. Which is again why I think the atom bombs weren't nearly as bad as people say they are.

Now, if you use hydrogen bomb now, it's a different story....