Announcement

**Drew Wilken** · November 6, 2001, 18:06

I'm still getting the hang of Civ3, but I can tell you that neighbors can be essential for tech advancement. If you have neighbors and keep up your army, they are not likely to be too aggressive (esp. on chieftain).

Peaceful neighbors give you the option to trade for tech and resources (with trade route). Luxuries can help keep your people happy so you can keep your science rate up. Also, sell your tech advances to your lesser neighbors for gold and use it to bump up your science spending even more even to deficit spending.

Science is dependent on:
early exploration (goodie hut freebies, early contact)
science budget
science improvements
trade/commerce
tech trading (can make a huge difference)

I'm sure there's more, but that is what comes to mind right away.

**Ahlyis** · November 6, 2001, 18:40

How to advance better.

I just finished a game on Monarch level. I launched my spaceship around 1750. I played on the default map size with 7 opponents, but this should work on a smaller map as well. Just with less efficiency.

I was trailing both the Americans and the Germans in every way, including Tech. In fact, on the score sheet, I was 7th, with only the Egyptians behind me. I had a score of about 600 while they had scores of 2000+. Nevertheless, I was able to beat them in the space race.

What I did was to start by contacting the Americans and trading for a tech. I had to give them some pretty good stuff, but I got the tech. Then I contacted everyone else and sold the tech to anyone I could. I spent the next 100 or so turns contacting the Germans and Americans every 4 or 5 turns and buying their latest tech with lump sum cash. Then I would sell it to everyone else for per turn payments. In one case, I paid 1200 for the tech and got payments over 20 years that totaled over 2000 gold. This was relatively early and later techs cost more, but brought in even larger profits.

In this way, I was able to pretty quickly catch up in the tech race. I was able to set my resources to 100% science and still have an income of 300-600 per turn. I was able to start researching new advances and got to some of the spaceship components first. When I launched the spaceship, the next closest competitor only had 6 components built and wasn't yet working ony any others.

I was horribly outclassed in Culture, Wonders, Land area and many other categories you might want to compare, but I won the game. The final score showed me in third, thanks to a 1000 point bonus from the early spaceship, but still trailing two other nations. But I won. The only thing that mattered was who met a victory condition first.

What I'm saying is, it doesn't matter how big or small you are, trade is the key to winning peacefully. Trade with everyone early and often. Let me say this again, TRADE TRADE TRADE!

**Alexander's Horse** · November 6, 2001, 19:42

Re: Bloody Forced Retirement; It's too early.

Originally posted by Pacific_Wing

In short, the game ends too quickly. I'm barely half way through the third age when 2050 rolls around, and once I've got some major hardware churning out and I'm ready to go into the space race, the game ends and I win/lose by default.

If you are so hopeless that you can't either conquer the world or launch a spaceship by 2050 then I'm afraid noone can help you. Sorry

**Blaupanzer** · November 7, 2001, 17:48

PW, ignore AH, he's crotchety. To finish earlier, adjust your strategy. Doing it right but missing a fixed deadline, is the same as doing it wrong.

Ahlyis, the buy and sell science strategy is brilliant. Keep up the contributions.

**Travathian** · November 7, 2001, 21:55

Please post what strategies and game style you do use. How many cities do you normally have, what sizes?

What sort of victory do you go for, and what civs do you play as?

I don't know what you're doing to keep you so far behind given all of the bonuses you get at such a low level, but lets see what you're doing first.

**Madine** · November 7, 2001, 22:38

Expand, build roads in every square you are working, build science improvements.

The Russians are the best Civ for science because their scouts can get early techs from huts, and they are a scientific civ.

I would recomend that you not play in the archeopolageo(sp).

**Mnus** · November 7, 2001, 22:51

Just curious - what sort of government are you under? You will get a lot more research done under republic/democracy. Civil disorder may be rough at first, but it just takes some practice to get used to.

Also, how many cities do you typically have? the more you get, the more trade will get applied to resources.

Most people here would be happy to help you. Seriously, If you make it all the way to 2050 without at least getting to the modern age, thiers got to be at least a few gameplay concepts that your comletely unaware of.

**Pacific_Wing** · November 8, 2001, 00:49

Thanks for your input. Here is an overview of how I usually play the game.

I play on a small map with usually 2 or 3 other civs on chieftain level. (okay, I'm a wimp. I admit it). I usually play the Babylonians or the Americans, but I have been known to experiment. When I'm getting started, depending on what I have, I usually set my explorer/warrior out to explore and find a place for my second city. I set my worker to improve the terrain around the first city. I irrigate one or two squares and mine the rest. Roads on everything. I concentrate my first city on building workers, settlers, and the occasional city improvement. During the first few turns I find that I spend a lot of time clicking the space bar, since everything's either building or busy; I have a hunch this might be one of my mistakes, but I'm not sure.

Once my second city is built in a location I like (half mountains, half flats, freash water if possible, and of course food resources) I set it to handle the expansion while my first city works on the first wonder (usually pyramids). I just go city by city like that; most recent cities doing the expansion, with the occasional exception when in hostile terrain or competing with another civ on my continent.

As for diplomacy, I've found the combat in civ3 to be an absolute nightmare. The units are horribly imbalanced as well as the AI having a huge advantage when producing them (not sure how that works). Since there is no longer a combat advantage on lower difficulty levels (which as a newer civ player, I need), I usually try to stay peaceful. In fact the combat engine is so poor in this game that I'll do anything not to go to war. I've found trades that get me "per turn" gold is an exceptional asset. It allows me to turn up my science and entertainment sliders a bit, and keep people happy and thinking.

My preferred government path is Monarchy, Republic, then finally Democratic.

I have recently just played a game that got me a little past "flight" before time ran out. I'm gradually getting further, but I still don't see how it is possible to get to the end of modern before forced retirement. I honestly don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I must be doing (or not doing) something.

Anyway, I'll keep playing peacefully until fraxis releases a patch at the end of the month (yeah right). I've actually considered going back to SMAC for a little while.

I don't know about you guys, but I feel a little bit cheated when I buy games that seem as though they have barley been play-tested. It's one of the reasons I stopped buying games from electronic arts, no matter how good the game's reputation. I know if EA produced it, there are bound to be lots of bugs. I hope Sid and his team don't end up working under people like that.

-Pacific_Wing

**Travathian** · November 8, 2001, 01:19

Combat works fine in Civ3. The computer does NOT get a production bonus at the lower difficulty levels.

Try this:

Skip the early wonders, they're all crap. Spend the shields on more workers and settlers.

Stop being a pansy and playing island games. Play a real map til you learn how to play the game. Island maps are actually harder due to smaller expansion area. If the computer starts making waves, build a bigger army.

Don't irrigate until Monarchy/Republic, there's no point. Use workers to mine and build roads. Even if it means building roads right behind your scout to unclaimed territory.

Keep science at 50% or higher at all times.

Don't build an improvement til you need it. What's the point in building a temple in a size two city? At your level you wont get an unhappy person til the 5 or 6 citizen.
If you're happy and you know it clap your hands.

Ideally you should have about 8 core bada$$ cities, all with high populations, high production and high science. Another 8-12 outside of those. These bases form a defensive perimeter. Fortify at least a fast moving unit, a defensive unit, and an artilery unit. Why? because all of them can be upgraded and you have all your bases covered.

Don't give up tech unless you need to. If you have plenty of money and are ahead in the tech race, there's no reason to trade. If you're ahead in the tech race, then your military should likewise be ahead, right?

By the end of the middle ages you should know which victory type will best suit the situation.

Way far ahead in the tech race? go for the space ship or a military victory. Those core 8 cities should be able to build the components in a few turns. OR they can be used to crank out high end military units, while the outlying cities crank out support units.

Even in the tech race? try making friends, build the UN and try getting elected.

Behind in everything? Try making friends and gang up on the leader. If you never have to fire a shot and the other civs do, it delays them.
I dont know what else to tell you, I've never had a problem getting to the advanced agaes in Civ or SMAC

**Special_K** · November 8, 2001, 01:29

Also try playing on a harder level where the other civs will get tech faster so you can trade for it. My first game I played on chieften and the other civs were hopelessly behind me in tech.

**Pacific_Wing** · November 8, 2001, 01:35

this is great input. Thanks. I'll try these tactics as soon as I get back to my computer.

thanks again. Cheers,

-Pacific_Wing

**Mnus** · November 8, 2001, 01:47

I'm happy you posted your strat - it has some pretty obvious holes in it that any experienced player can recognize. While Civ is a VERY 'open ended' game strategy wise, thier are many options that SEEM okay, but are really overshadowed by other playing styles.

I'll have to agree with travathian. Most of what he suggests is going to help you dramatically. I'll go ahead and add my 2 cents.

As already stated, your early years are going to be spent expanding your borders. Breed like a roach colony. Try to time it so a settler pops out around the same time a city gets to population 3. Don't worry too much about finding the -perfect- site, just make sure it's not completly surrounded by desert/jungle/mountains. Also, The manual, and many players, warn about cities with overlapping borders. I'm usually not to worried about this, since all it really means is your max city pop will only get to say, 16-17, instead of say, 27. Either way, you will only run into this wall after Sanitation, many centurys from the beginning.

Colossus is NICE to have for scientific advances. But I wouldn't risk building ANY wonder this early in civ3 - Ive had the comp beat me to it far to many times.

for lots of Science, here are the 'major techs' I typically aim for.

Literature - builds libraries
????????? - that one tech that allows you to build universites. Sorry, forgot the name.
Republic - Again, switching to a republic early on will DRASTICALLY speed up research. Much more so than monarchy.
Steam Engine - speeds up food production, which speeds up growth, which allows you to get more surplus pop. to make scientists.

**Sevorak** · November 8, 2001, 02:35

Hi PW,

As it so happens I just finished my first game of Civ3, on Chieftan level (trying out, so to speak). I won a cultural victory in 1969, researching Space Flight - kind of stumbled into it, really, since I didn't know the cultural win requirements. I played on a Large map with 7 competing civs.

The basic idea I followed was ripped straight from Civ 2 - quick early expansion followed by massive infrastructural development, plenty of early trade with a supersciencecity up and running as quickly as possible. Upon acquisition of significant technological advantage, build force and attack - given war weariness, I decided to engage in short wars for limited objectives.

Founded my capital, built a warrior and two workers immediately. The warrior went exploring in one direction. One worker followed on his heels building a road as he went. The other worker went exploring, building a road as he went (in retrospect rather risky with Restless barbarians). Capital built temple then settler. Found an adequate site for another city, not too particular with how good it was as long as I could build there. Founded city, then generated two more settlers, capital first, then second city. They ran along the roads I had built to quickly reach empty space, then founded as quickly as they could. Capital began the Colossus, other cities built settlers and workers as necessary. I established a ten-city core around 1000 BC. During this time I had a short war with the Babylonians which saw me capture Nineveh and Ur and then make peace. Traded technology as much as possible - at one point, trading Mysticism, Polytheism, and Monarchy for Iron Working and Writing. I really don't care what their tech is like as long as I've got all I need. Launched myself to Republic early.

From there, I built heavily toward infrastructure, picking up temples, libraries, a few defensive units in each city, as well as building wonders (every one except for the Great Library, which I couldn't build after I discovered Education

) Timed my Golden Age with UU victory for just after most cities got Universities. With every city size 12, I raised a force of eleven cavalry shortly after discovering Military Tradition, and took out the Babylonians' remaining five cities in the space of two turns. Instant "peace" for my citizens

Techwise, made a beeline for Astronomy and then Theory of Gravity, rushing the Library and University in my capital so it could work on Copernicus' and Newton's. Tech was moving at a 6-7 turn clip, Republic, about 50% to science.

The Babylonians had been sandwiched between me (the Persians) and the Zulus, so as the next step, I walked troops up right to the underdeveloped borders of the Zulu cities. Shaka had about fifteen cities at this point, ten on our continent and five offshore. After I was in position, I threatened him, extorting gold and a useless tech (Chivalry, which I'd skipped altogether) , eventually declaring war. Over the next three turns, I kicked Shaka off my continent, then made peace. The outer Zulu cities were essentially worthless due to corruption, even when switched to Democracy.

After discovering Steam Engine, I found my one source of coal - then it blinked out after only four squares of Railroad. I painstakingly lugged a settler and a worker plus a cavalry back across my continent, onto a Galleon, and sent it on a five turn journey to a dense equatorial jungle containing the only coal deposit I had a realistic chance at. Founded a corruption plagued city there, but it managed to get the coal back to my empire (how I do not know. It was not connected by road to any of my network, nor was it coastal - it was roaded to the French, but I was not actively trading with them at the time). Kicked it into high gear as soon as I got the coal, railing down every square I could while building hospitals as soon as I got Sanitation (which I rushed for). Continued to build every wonder. Infrastructural development continued for a long while, until 1812 or so. Racked up the techs along the way, not so much from the SSC (the effects appear to be no longer cumulative, so 50 science enhanced by Cope's and Newton's is no longer 200, but 150), but more from the Libraries and Universities in every major city - about 15-17 at the time. After building Wall Street and getting a solid +50 gold per turn, gold stores shot up, so I started paying for spies through my Intelligence Agency. Got a spy everywhere except with the Aztecs and Germans. Tried the Aztecs again, failed again (is this always the case?) and Monty declared war on me. My cities (on Wealth, since I'd built every improvement, even coastal fortresses!) churned out tanks and transports, and I sailed to his comparatively little isle, which he shared with the Americans. I'd signed a mutual protection pact with Shaka, and Abe attacked him, forcing me to join in on Shaka's side - no bother, I'd just take the whole isle instead of just the Aztec half. Did that, reducing the Aztecs to two cities, then made peace. With Universal Suffrage and Police Stations everywhere I didn't feel any war weariness at all, despite a 40-60 turn campaign to destroy the Americans (who'd dropped settlers in any space on the map, all over the map).

Computers was my first modern advance and SETI went into the SSC. Researching at a 1-per-8 clip, glacial compared to Civ2's 1-per-2 or even 2-per rates, I acquired Synthetic Fibers in 1950, upgraded to Modern Armor, and was just about to put together a three nation anti-German alliance (feeding Catherine and Joan little 100-300 gold gifts every other turn put them into smile-and-nod mode to virtually anything I proposed that was borderline fair) when Persepolis with 13 wonders hit 20,049 culture (104 per turn) and won me the game. Obviously, with an infrastructural builder bent, my culture was...superior, to say the least, with six cities >10k and a total culture value of 83000 or so.

Observations:

As with Civ2, I didn't get finicky about city placement. Two grasslands, no major overlap? Good. Settler, go there. My objective was to establish a good core of cities that when built up would form a good base for virtually all my economic, scientific and military development.

Fresh water was a problem early - my first 1500 years were played entirely without fresh water. I eventually found a river right at the Babylonian border and had to track in irrigation square by square in order to get the water to my industrial base. Being an Industrious civ helped there - Persia and its Scientific Industrious combo really fit my builder strat. I played University and PKbuilder in SMAC - that was a good warm up, eased my transition between Civs some.

Initial combat is odd. I wouldn't recommend it before Chivalry at least. I used four archers to knock out one spearman to take Ur, and three warriors and three archers to take out one spearman and one warrior in Nineveh. They weren't large towns, either. Much better alternative is to wait until a tech advantage (and hopefully, a morale advantage) allows you to actually do fair shield-for-shield trades in combat.

With the painfully slow rate of tech advancement in Civ 3, getting instant techs is more useful than ever. Get to the goody huts early. Trade for techs, whatever they want within reason. If necessary, establish an embassy and steal tech. You NEED those techs, just because every moment saved NOT researching a prerequisite is another you gain researching something new. Dash for science improvements and science wonders.

Great Leaders - didn't see one. Over 30 Elite combats won, no leaders appearing. As a result, no army, no Epic, Academy or Pentagon.

Funny thing when I discovered Refining. At that time, only 7 civs were left as I'd eliminated the Babylonians. I was contemplating a war for oil if I needed it when I found out where the oil was. I had 7 oil and none other was to be found throughout the map. I didn't cover that much territory, either. Later on, a patch appeared in a forest in Russian territory, but before that, I had the kind of oil monopoly which would doom a MP game with that kind of map. Hopefully that's just a for-Chieftan adjustment. Didn't matter much in the game as none of them could use or see Oil, but an interesting note.

About resources again - I didn't see a single city qualify for the Iron Works wonder, either mine or theirs. My game lacked coal I suppose.

"Killer Phalanx Syndrome" - not so much critical as annoying. One tank lost to a pikeman in over 50 attacks is acceptable, I suppose, but it's just so Civ 1 I'm getting annoyed anyway. More annoying was where my Veteran Battleship was down to 1 hp after taking on 3 barbarian galleys which shot arrows at it. What was wrong with hp*10/firepower?

Bombardment - Is it just me or is it really useless? I had four battleships, a destroyer and a frigate(don't ask) in the closing stages of my America elimination campaign outside Houston pumping the city full of shells each turn. After six or so turns of bombardment wherein I destroyed a harbor, a marketplace, a cathedral, a barracks, and reduced the population from 5 to 1, my tank attacked, and took 2 hp damage from an undamaged pikeman. Wait a minute...bombardment's supposed to be the equalizer, right? So that the attackers can get through all the layered defensive bonuses the game has...right? Is there some way I do not yet know of to make them shoot at the units and not waste time blowing up civilians or buildings? Oh yeah a carrier loaded with a jet fighter and a plain bomber was parked out there too, but I didn't make too many bombing runs with them; besides, it kept saying they failed.

Corruption - Can't write about the game without making some kind of observation. Overall, I didn't mind it much. I ended up with a size 18 city producing 1/1 with 34 shields wasted and something like 62 commerce corrupted, but it was halfway across the globe. I'm a builder, though. Conquerors probably hate it. I think it could be improved, maybe with more ways to control it. Corruption is a fine way to control ICS - just add more improvements that reduce it or allow other existing improvements to reduce it and you have a built in infrastructural incentive that kills ICS quite dead. Courthouses, police stations, temples, cathedrals (let's assume for the moment that religious people are not corrupt) , something like that. I don't see it as a major issue, though that may just be the builder in me talking again.

All right, this got a lot longer than I thought it would be. I hope you can gather something of use from my ramblings.

-Sev

**Pacific_Wing** · November 8, 2001, 07:19

Just wanted to let you guys know that I finally got to the modern age. It took most of Travathian's advice to get there. I think I figured out my problem: I was building every city improvement that I had access to; I realized this is a big no-no.

Here are the details: The game was on a map with two large continents (you're right Trav, that is easier than islands); the French and I (the Russians) were on one, and the Indians were with China on the other. I started expanding like mad to get into the only mountain range and towards the French. Eventually I had them blocked in, so they started moving settlers through my territory (despite my protests, which they ignored). Once they started colonizing on the other side of me, I figured I had enough of sharing my land with the French. I assembled my army of Knights and Longbows (some of which I already had built up for intimidation purposes) and used diplomacy to get her to declare war. I think ol' Joan of Arc was getting a little annoyed with me anyway.

Ultimately, I pushed the French back with little trouble and continued to evolve my science during the war with almost no setbacks. I raised every city, except the capitol and the one with a wonder in it. Then I declared peace once I had her blocked in a little corner of the map.

Eventually I went up the discovery ladder and once I got to steam engine, I found I had every resource except saltpeter. Oddly enough, I was still able to build riflemen. I had been communicating with the Indians and eventually China. I found out why it is not always a good idea to make mutual protection pacts. India went to war with China and I was dragged into it, and I lost my only source of saltpeter (which I traded to get from China).

After a long drawn out conflict, I managed to get a settler on a part of an island where China didn't keep much of its army. I pushed them back long enough to discover, much to my delight, that there was a saltpeter deposit not far away from where I made my new outpost. Once I had a colony over it, I declared piece with china and never went into another one of those damn MPPs.

I was republic, so I was making a fair share of cash, which I hadn't been paying much attention to during the war. I found that I had built up quite a bit of cash, which Wall Street served to make a good thing better.

I pushed all of my extra money into science, and made lots of scientists. The people weren't happy, but they weren't revolting. Oddly enough, I managed to assimilate three of France's cities, so I must have done something right.

Anyhow, I got within 30 years of winning the space race when 2050 rolled around. Too bad. It was going well. I'm sure I'll get it next time.

Reflections:
*Why can I build infantry and riflemen without a saltpeter supply? Bug?
*How come Cossack isn't an upgrade to the Knight? I think it should be. Cavalry is.
*Mutual Protection pacts are only a good thing if you think war is inevitable.
*Don't build something just because you can.
*The patch should add something to prevent other civs from ignoring your demand to get the hell out; perhaps an automatic and immediate sendback feature.
*The corruption problem has its ups and downs. It is more realistic this way, but it is a pain in the ass.

Thanks for your input everyone; It was a tremendous help.

Cheers,

Pacific Wing

Announcement

Bloody Forced Retirement; It's too early.

Bloody Forced Retirement; It's too early.

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment