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Absorbing initial worker

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  • Inverse Icarus
    replied
    when civ3 originally came out i came up with this question and someone mathematically proved it's better to improve tiles.

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  • Sarxis
    replied
    And keep in mind, I play accelerated production, so spitting out your first settler is much faster (and the growth is too).

    And that thread is very good. All in all, it does seem that you could stand to gain by absorbing the first worker in very specific cases, but of course only in the short term. And delaying the absorbtion until a road or two or a key irrigation is completed could improve the tactic.

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  • dexters
    replied
    In the higher difficulty levels, adding the initial worker to the city adds nothing, just gives you a lot of headaches as your city gets too large to manage and discontent sets in.

    As already noted, you want to be putting that worker to use improving tiles.

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  • MrWhereItsAt
    replied
    It could be worth it if you got that first settler up and running faster, particularly if the new city included lux, great growth terrain or resources.

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  • chequita guevara
    replied
    I never even considered doing it.

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  • Dimension
    replied
    Here's the thread I was talking about:
    http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...threadid=39206

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  • Dimension
    replied
    This was discussed at length in some old threads. I did some turn-by-turn calculations in different positions on absorbing the worker, lumgerjacking a forest then absorbing the worker, etc.

    The final word seemed to be that adding your initial worker back to your city is only worth it if your starting position is very bad, in which case you would've been better off moving the settler a few times before founding your initial city. You really can't justify it except in obscure situations where infrastructure is a non-issue, like essentially abandoning the city or Aeson's interesting example of making few warriors and winning immediately.

    In my own analyses, I was calculating the time it would take you to have four cities, three warriors and two workers (or something like that). You were always better off keeping the worker, although if your civ is Industrious, you can pull it off and end up only being a couple turns behind in some situations.

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  • Sarxis
    replied
    Another factor too was that I did start building settlers after a few initial scouting warriors. Does getting your second city settled with comparable terrain make a difference?

    I still think it could be advantageous especially to those civs that can easily beeline Philosophy. It also seems to help with building scouts quicker for good huts.

    Spaced Cowboy, I'm gonna try to look for that thread. Any hints?

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  • Spaced Cowboy
    replied
    There was a thread a while ago where someone worked this out and determined that it was not worth it...but it was close.

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  • East Street Trader
    replied
    Well, the example now surfacing focus on a short term increase in shields coming at a critical moment.

    The downside is that after a short time the loss of early improvements to tiles kicks in and tips the balance of advantage into loss.

    The examples given are of cases where the extra initial speed produces so great an advantage that this longer term loss does not matter.

    But can the longer term loss itself be ameliorated?

    Say the first city finds time at some point to replace the worker? Is there any sequence of builds which would keep the initial burst but manage to limit the longer term loss?

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  • Aeson
    replied
    Depends on what the goal is. I remember looking at a HOF game over at Civfanatics, trying to figure out how this person had a Conquest victory on turn 9 (Chieftain, Tiny map, 2 AI). For the life of me I couldn't figure it out because the start would only allow a Jag Warrior every 4 turns in that timeframe, and the huts didn't give out any Warriors.

    Then I noticed he didn't have any native Workers. By adding the first Worker, the Jag Warrior comes out in 2 turns (was working 2 Cattle on plains instead of 1), and gives just enough time to get to both the AI.

    There were times with the old Industrial trait that you could come out close to even by adding the initial Worker after improving a tile or two. You end up with a bit more commerce and production at the expense of a bit less food. Now (especially considering the chop time for Forests) I don't think it would work as well.

    Certain gambles like the one I described above might pay off, but they are rather big gambles. As another example, expansionist Civs could get out faster Scouts, and if that allows the player to make contacts with the AI in time to trade starting techs, could make a very big impact on the game. Especially if the player is able to grab a couple AI Workers in those trades that otherwise wouldn't have been available.

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  • DrSpike
    replied
    I can't actually remember a game where I did it, though I thought about it a lot as a possibility back in 1.07. I should have said 'never', but I'm sure there is a counterexample somewhere so I wimpily said 'rarely'.

    Essentially the benefit of adding is small, and the benefit of improving tiles large in comparison. Usually you are short on workers early game anyway........one of the key decisions is how much time and food to 'waste' kicking out workers. Taking one away without a very good reason is not advisable IMO.

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  • sabrewolf
    replied
    i can only think of one occasion where it's worth adding the worker:

    on a 1-tile-island-start

    no, seriously... adding the first worker to my city was a mistake i only did in my very first games

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  • East Street Trader
    replied
    When do you believe it to be the right strategy, then, DrSpike?

    Has anyone tried a calculation? Say, taking the two sugar on a river case and comparing resources generated after, say, 20 and 40 years?

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  • DrSpike
    replied
    Adding the initial worker is rarely the correct strategy for a given opening.

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