Help me test a better Chasqui Scout!

[Dominae]

Since we're not going to do an official AU course, I thought it might still be fun to do a comparative game, and get the ball rolling on discussions for AU mod stuff.

Here's a little scenario that I set up for myself:

Civ: Incans
Map: 3 billion years old, standard everything else
Difficulty: Any from Regent to Sid
Modifications: 1. Chasqui Scout 0/0/1 ATAR, 20 Shields, 2. Scout upgrades to Chasqui Scout

I've included a screenshot of the starting location below.

The idea behind the "new" Chasqui is simply to improve it by making it a "super Scout", rather than a "really bad Jaguar Warrior". For those of you puzzling over 'ATAR', it simply means that this version of the Chasqui treats all terrain as Roads. Thus, although it only has one movement point, it can actually travel three tiles every turn (it's basically half an Explorer). The reason to make Scouts upgrade to Chasqui Scouts is to ensure that the Incans start with this new UU right from the start, providing them with some truly awesome exploration capabilities.

The goals of this "test" are twofold:

1. Test out this new and improved Chasqui Scout. Is it too powerful to have at turn 1? Is the 20-Shield cost too high? What kinds of crazy things can you do in the Ancient era with an Explorer-type unit?

This will provide valuable feedback for use in AU mod discussions.

2. Test out the power of the Agricultural trait. The map is one I would refer to as "Good" for Agr. civs. Try to play out the game long enough to determine whether or not Agricultural is really overpowering on such maps (of course, you can play through to completion if you want!). Remember that Agr. still get major benefits in the mid-game once they change governments.

For those of you of a mind to try this out: have fun (that is, try not to think of the gpt and Corruption bugs!).


Dominae

[Dominae]

4000BC:

[Rhothaerill]

I should be able to work on this one...especially since there is no AU course. At least the start isn't as good as my first straight-out-of-the-box game with the agriculture trait. Three rivers and several wheat in the vicinity. Didn't know about the free tech from philosophy so researched the Wheel first. Received an SGL so I quickly researched masonry and built the Pyramids. With three rivers I had my first 11 cities all getting the agriculture bonus and having a granary in each. Can you say game over at 2500bc?

[vmxa1]

Rhothaerill, man SGL so soon, can I go to Vegas with you?

Dom, I was wondering why you would test traits and units on any other level than Regent? This is the one place that no one has any bonus or extra units, so you do not have those factors impacting the out come?

The new scout will be impacted at say Sid where they have 18 extra starting troops and 2 settlers and 4 workers. The bonus for the AI and these units will make it cover the land so much faster that the scout is in effect down graded.

[Dominae]

vmxa1, the game is set up with the Incans as the human player. Therefore it's a test to see whether the modified Chasqui is a good unit in the human player's hands, whatever his or her skill level.

It's a well-known fact that he AI does not use the Expansionist trait very well because it never builds more than one Scout. However, I'm happy to report that the AI uses a 0/0/1 ATAR unit very well (much better than 1/1/2 for 20 Shields, which it uses to escort Settlers and defend cities), despite the fact that it still never builds more than one. Even on Sid level, it uses the modified Chasqui to scout further/faster than it normally does. I've verified this already in Debug mode, since it's sort of hard to see in a normal game.


Dominae

[vmxa1]

I knew you would have a reason, just wanted to find out what it was.

[Rhothaerill]

I've played through to 1675bc (emperor level) so far and my preliminary views of the "improved" Chasqui scout are that it is VERY powerful and 20 shields would be about right. I built exactly one more besides my starting one and in very short order uncovered most of the continent. The ability to treat all terrain as roads is extremely powerful...especially when you have a map with as many hills and mountains as this one does. The ability to move through three mountains in one turn with all it's attendant viewing capabilities is nothing to sneeze at. With it I had early contact with all my neighbors and was able to set up some favorable tech deals that catapulted me fairly far into the tech lead.

Regarding the agricultural trait so far, the start wasn't quite as good as my first Conquests game, but this is still an excellent start with all the fresh water. The extra food when settling on fresh water is not only good for faster growth and REXing, it's good for more production early on since you can use extra forests or the like much earlier while still maintaining good growth.

Oh, and I'm having fun.

[Taian]

Looks like fun. Tried to download it, but the zip folder is empty...

[Rhothaerill]

Try again. It worked fine for me.

[ducki]

I'm up to 1600bc and I think the new Chaqsui is extremely powerful.

I do have some misgivings about trying to analyze the power of Agriculture with an Expansionist civ - both traits are very much geared to REX and the early advantage. I have 1 fewer towns than everyone else on my continent, and mostly got maps from huts, but I have a hard time seeing how I could lose. And I've only been able to trade tech twice for first rank techs - I've been in the lead ever since, which rarely happens at Monarch.


Love the new scout, have misgivings about analyzing Agriculture's early game advantage when paired with another early game trait. I used Scientific for my tests, as that's not much of a REX-vantage.

Nice scenario, Dom. Good mod to the UU, IMO, but with ATAR, maybe it should take more than 7 turns to build one - I think the cost is a little low.

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Taian
Looks like fun. Tried to download it, but the zip folder is empty...

That is an artifact from XP. I have run into it before and I get it on this as well.
I forot how to DL it with out a problem. maybe some one will remind me.

[nbarclay]

I played this game on Emperor using the standard version of the Chasqui Scout instead of Dominae's modifed version. (Dominae, thanks again for setting up the standard version.) I had a very nice REX thanks to a free settler my scout found very early just a few tiles away from Cattle Lake. That let me found Machu Picchu, my great two-turn worker pump (once its granary was completed), in 3500 BC. With a rapid REX assured, I had no real fear going after Code of Laws before Philosophy, allowing me to begin my transition to Republic in 1425 BC. The screenshot shows my civ at the time.

I was so busy REXing that I only ever built one Chasqui Scout. Both he and my regular scout focused their explorations toward the north, so I didn't find out much about what was east and west of me until very late. After some exploration, my Chasqui came back home to serve as anti-barbarian defense and culture flip protection. He even knocked out a barbarian camp and got promoted along the way. (So in essence, he functioned first as a scout and then as a fast warrior with retreat ability.)

[nbarclay]

In 775 BC, as my REXing was winding down, the Mongols bopped one of my settlers. As I often do, I was playing with almost no military, and a rush-built spearman was unable to defend my northernmost city against the Mongol archers' advance. The losses meant little in material terms - it was very late in the game before corruption was anything less than devastating that far north - but having to divert to a war footing was annoying.

In 710 BC, a lucky Mongol archer defending a hill killed two attacking horsemen, being reduced to one hit point in the process. My Chasqui Scout struck and the golden age of the Incas began.

Note that I'm trying to culturally crowd the Chinese city of Nanking and the Dutch cities of The Hague and Groningen. At this point, my effort to crowd Nanking isn't going very well; China built a temple there earlier than I'd hoped they would.

[Arrian]

Looks like GS's military once upon a time.

-Arrian

[nbarclay]

The rate at which I could build horsemen or swordsmen during my golden age would have supported military conquest on a large scale if I had been interested in pursuing that objective. But with the Forbidden Palace heavily crippled, that did not seem particularly profitable. Instead, I made peace with the Mongols as quickly as possible and went back into builder and research mode.

As I often do on Continents maps, I beelined to Navigation with a goal of opening foreign luxury trade as early as possible. When I got to the other continent around the mid 300's AD, I found out that the Celts had taken a big bite out of India and had almost finished chewing up Porgugal. (The Celts left Portugal with a single city, the fur city in the far northwest of the continent, but the Greeks finished them off later.)

Over time, the tide turned in my cultural campaign. Borders around Nanking shifted in my favor, and by the end of the medieval era, I had more than twice the culture of either the Chinese or the Dutch. During the course of the era, both Nanking and the Dutch city of Groningen flipped to me. Groningen proved especially handy since it proved to be my only "native" source of saltpeter. The only medieval wonder I allowed an AI to get was Magellan's, which was claimed by China.

I entered the industrial era in 610 AD. At the time, I was six techs ahead of my closest competitor, but I'd been in too much of a builder mode to have the mounted troops needed for a cavalry blitz. My plan was to research Steam Power and possibly another industrial tech and then go back for Military Tradition.

And yes, if you can read it, I'm actually building knights. I traded for Chivalry in order to build the Knights Templar, not because it was worth building for its own sake (with only two Crusaders by the time it became obsolete for me, it most certainly was not), but just because I was collecting wonders.

By the way, I dealt with the GPT bug by keeping rough track of how much gold I was getting that I wasn't supposed to and not spending that gold. There may have been a few times during the course of the game where I went a little below what should have been zero, but I tried to keep finances essentially honest.