Bye bye PtW

[Harovan]

I'm currently trying to set up an epic "Bye bye PtW" game for the time after AU 210, and I think I should try something new, at least for me. I want to be it a game on a very big map, including all 24 civs. Here's what I'm up to do:


Map settings
------------
- huge 200x200, 24 civs, raging barbarians
- continents, normal humidity, temperate
- world age 3 bill years, given the map size this makes beautiful, very rough terrain
- Tech rate increased 25% for map size and another 25% to slow down tech race, makes +62.5%
- Minimal research time 5 turns, maximal research time 50 turns

Terrain changes (very important!)
---------------------------------
- No cities on jungle, forest, desert (yes on floodplains), tundra and mountains
- No roads on mountains. Stock mountains given +1 commerce.
- All mountain resources except gold moved to hills.
- Ocean impassable for wheeled units.

Unit changes, mostly from the AU mod, some highlights
-----------------------------------------------------
- Knight level units (except Keshiks), Cavalry level units and all modern units wheeled
- Keshik has movement cost removed at mountains and hills, War Elephant at forest and jungle
- Paratroopers 8.8.2, +1hp, cost 12
- Marines 10.6.1, +1hp, cost 12
- Land Bombard units and Leaders can be airlifted
- Cruise Missiles can be loaded
- Air unit and missile range increased 30-50%
- Stealth aircraft can't be carrier based
- Stealth fighter has lethal sea bombardement, Stealth Bomber even land and sea
- Ship movement except Galleys and Ironclads increased by 1-2 points
- Destroyers detect subs and can carry 1 tactical missile, nuke subs can carry 2
- Galleys and Ironclads are wheeled. No suicide galleys, period.

Still undecided
---------------
- Should I eliminate railroads from the game and increase the road movement to 4 or 5? That gives better military tactics, hands down. The production and food bonuses RR gives need to be replaced by moderately increasing some basic stats instead.

What do I expect from the game?
-------------------------------
- I don't aim for killer AIs. Not all 23 AIs can be killers. Some will be huge, some pitiful small due to terrain constraints. C'est la vie.
- No roads on mountains makes up for some interesting tactical moves and city placement at strategical important points. Mountain chains are gigantic, given the map settings
- No cities on desert and tundra keeps the AI to waste settlers on crap cities. Want that oil or the luxury? Build a colony, protect it and guard the road.
- No cities on forest means: Don't cheat and plant forest on tundra, then settle.
- I don't want to conquer the map. That would be an insane slugfest. I'm even thinking to switch off all victory conditions and just to power-play till 2050, or till I get sick of the game.


So what do you guys think of these conditions. I would especially appreciate the opinion of our economy buffs and AI experts, what concerns the city building constraints, the road issue on mountains, and maybe the open railroad question.

[Cort Haus]

I'll need a faster PC and a time-bubble!

I like the colonies idea and the huge tracts of unsettled land. The movement suggestions remind me CTP and I can see the military interest of removing RR, and the limiting effect on modern maneuvrability, but not so sure about the 'shifting the basic stats' without a clearer picture.

As for the victory conditions or lack thereof - the thought that my only goal is to get sick of the game doesn't quite fire the imagination...


(typo edited)

[FrustratedPoet]

Sounds very interesting indeed.

- Ocean impassable for wheeled units.

I'm not sure I understand this one. Surely wheeled units can't travel on oceans anyway. Is this a typo or am I dumb?

I especially like the restrictions you're placing on mountain movement. Given the size and age of the map it should make for some very interesting situations (and some really snasty start locations for some poor Civ that starts in a valley between two ranges).

If I were you I wouldn't touch RR unless someone else comes along to tell you about their experiences with making similar changes. Having 5-move roads and increasing base stats of terrain has the potential to change the game so much that it gets ruined. Not the sort of thing I'd want to mess around with, but YMMV of course.

Are you planning to post the 4000bc save of your game here for others to try?

(are you going to give the Korean UU lethal land bombardment?)

[CerberusIV]

The problem with no roads on mountains is that the map often throws up sections of continents isolated by mountain chains. In reality there would be a road or rail connection built regardless of cost, but not roads on every mountain. I don't think this can be duplicated in the game though.

Making oceans impassable to galleys works well with the wheeled flag - until you are the poor sucker stuck on a small continent and can't get off.

You might be better advised to give lethal sea bombardment to bombers and/or jet fighters, not stealth aircraft - that way the AI may reach the necessary tech and make use of the units whereas I rarely see AI stealth aircraft even very late in my games.

If you have a way of preventing particular air units basing on carriers I would like to know what it is - I have been trying to solve that one for some time. I think I have an answer but haven't tested it yet.

Probably worth allowing cruise missiles to be airlifted as well as loaded.

[Harovan]

Cort Haus: There's always the 2050AD histograph victory I can aim for. I want to play the game not primarily to win, but to get a nice experience, which will reward me for the time invested.

FP: I make galleys and ironclads "wheeled" too, so they can't get on ocean. Makes frigates longer useful. Ironclads are for the coast guard. I don't plan to publish the save, but will if there is interest. It would have to be in different difficulties, too. I can, however, publish the scenario, but then everyone gets a different map. But that's ok, it is too big for an AU course anyway.

Cerberus: I'm kind of an egoist in this game and don't set it up for AI's sake. It is not supposed to be a big challenge for strategical masterminds, it is supposed to be a fun game and an awesome experience. The AI doesn't need to have fun, so there . So I don't care if some pityful AI (one of 23) gets stuck on a small island, and if I do so myself, well, I can either stick it out or just restart.

[Mountain Sage]

Looks interesting. Post the save and I'll play it.

No roads on mountains: not very logical; make it 3-5x the usual number of turns to be built.
RR: yes. RR=roads x3-5 movement but no 'troops teleportation'. This is something pretty stupid in Civ 3 (you stack 20 tanks, disband all other units in your cities and save lots of gold).

[Harovan]

Mountain Sage: I thought of this, making roads on mountains very expensive, but then the AI would waste a lot of workers to road every mountain at the expense of the other terrain improvement. Not good. Plus, with lots of mountains roaded, the need to build foot units to fight on mountain ranges would vanish.

I would love to play with RR's, which increase road movement without making it infinite. Unfortunately, there is no such option in Civ3. That's one of the very few things I like in the CtP series better. That's why I'm considering to have roads with 4 or 5 movement, but no railroads instead. But that isn't yet decided, I'm just collecting opinions here.

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Cort Haus: There's always the 2050AD histograph victory I can aim for. I want to play the game not primarily to win, but to get a nice experience, which will reward me for the time invested.

Quite right

Its also fun sometimes to see how the AI gets on with a situation.

Slightly OT - did you like the CTP combat system with the combined arms? It worked early on, but ultimately you just had to build great stacks of those mech dudes and go stomping around over everyone! Ah - memories...

[Cort Haus]

Originally posted by Cort Haus
Slightly OT - did you like the CTP combat system with the combined arms? It worked early on, but ultimately you just had to build great stacks of those mech dudes and go stomping around over everyone! Ah - memories...

(before anyone else gets there)

... a bit like Modern Armour then.

[Harovan]

I like the CtP combat system better than the Civ3 one. Not only because of true combined arms, but also because of the limited movement (10 moves per move point is all you can get, and that is already in a future age), the zone of control and the limited number of unit you can have at one tile (9 in CivCtP, 12 in CtP2). It's just not realistic to have the whole army of a country at one tile .

[Arrian]

Cool stuff, SR.

The mountain thing is a bit extreme, but I see what you're trying to do. Is there no way to tie roadbuilding on mountains to a tech? Too bad the "wheeled" thing is for mountains AND jungles, otherwise you could make workers wheeled, and create an "engineer" available later in the game that isn't wheeled. Then workers can't road mountains simply because they can't move onto them, and engineers can come later and do the job (as well as RR for the production bonus).

No cities on desert or tundra? I know you are trying to cut down on the AI's worthless towns, but a civ that starts in the far north or south (tundra) or near the equator (desert/jungle) could really be screwed.

I like the idea of having to chop forest or jungle before settling though.

The "wheeled" tag on galleys & ironclads is a great one. I like that a lot.

RRs... hmm. I think you have it: increase the movement on roads (especially given the size of the map) to 4.

-Arrian

[Harovan]

Originally posted by Arrian
The mountain thing is a bit extreme, but I see what you're trying to do. Is there no way to tie roadbuilding on mountains to a tech? Too bad the "wheeled" thing is for mountains AND jungles, otherwise you could make workers wheeled, and create an "engineer" available later in the game that isn't wheeled. Then workers can't road mountains simply because they can't move onto them, and engineers can come later and do the job (as well as RR for the production bonus).

To create an extra unit is a good idea. I will think into this and make some tests. Btw, in my description I forgot to mention, that the War Elephant can't be wheeled either, or he can't enter the jungle, which movement cost he has removed.

No cities on desert or tundra? I know you are trying to cut down on the AI's worthless towns, but a civ that starts in the far north or south (tundra) or near the equator (desert/jungle) could really be screwed.

I ran some tests in debug mode, and yes, there are a few civs screwed, usually around 4. But it's 4 out of 23 , so it doesn't really matter.

What I also want, is to create unsettled areas. First, because the barbarian threat persists and you have to protect your workers against horsemen, second, to give airfields some use. It buggers me greatly, that you can build them only in own or unsettled territory. Since in normal games there is no unsettled territory and in own territory I have cities, there's no room for airforce bases. I also like the idea of having to build colonies. I know, that the AI will do it.

[FrustratedPoet]

Playing a game with large sections of unsettled terrain in the later ages will be a great novelty in itself. Sounds good.

[Jaybe]

- No roads on mountains. Stock mountains given +1 commerce.

Now why didn't I think of that ... as an alternative to my mod's "Mountains are Impassable (no ifandorbuts)." Thumbs up on all the terrain changes (I hadn't disallowed cities in jungle yet), wheeled horse and motorized/mech units, .... Even a large map would do fine!

Not sure which I would prefer re the mountains. You often have mountain passes with my mod, and yes there are isolated cities. In my current game I have only sea access to one of my core cities on the same continent (when I don't have a RoP).

It's all about not having the choice of moving large formations through the mountains, having terrain really influencing strategy. Whether just disallowing roads would be satisfactory, I do not know.

[Rhothaerill]

This sounds like an interesting game SR. My only concern is my computer speed. My computer wasn't up to snuff to play AU402. I was getting 30+ minute turns in the 1500's and eventually had to quit.