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  • Micromanaging Early Shields

    Subtle inside joke for those who played the 1980's Star Wars videogame: "We've lost our shields!!"

    In the beginning of the game, there is ample room for micromanagement without any real boredom, and in fact, it can be quite an interesting "game alongside the game." I'd like to take a look in this thread at some of the most common early-game food/shield "best counts" (counts achieved when a city is using the terrain that provides the most FOPs*, and problems or "problems" related to them. Only shields will be considered, as just this subject alone is already complex enough.

    Cases where shield counts rise in mid-build/mid-growth will be mostly ignored here, as simple cases are complex enough. Only the early game will be considered, and only common food/shield counts.

    An implicit guideline in the below is the "10-turn guideline": where no strategic consideration is involved (of course, one generally is), a city should try to get something built in 10 turns.

    SHIELDS
    1 shield - An uncommon shield count in the very beginning, this becomes more common once (if) you start REXing beyond the range of your workers. Horribly low, but no shield-count micromanagement problem here, except for the issue of a city that reaches 11 shields on turn 10 (due to growth) and thus must choose between a more expensive build and a waste of 1 shield (10%, which is low compared to many cases below). Especially if the city also has one food or if the next square will not increase the shield count, the best builds (all else being equal) for such cities are warriors or workers (and considering that such cities are often unconnected border cities, both are actually fairly appropriate builds even without micromanagement). For religious civs, a rushed temple also works. Basically, you want to get at least SOMETHING out of this city in reasonable time.

    2 shields - will go into any multiple of ten, though your shield count will generally rise, possibly causing shield wastage, before you build anything more expensive than 10 shields.

    3 shields - the first really interesting case. 10-shield items get built with 20% wastage in a 3-shield city. Often, even when you really need a 10-shielder, you can micromanage the city (if you can remember...) to trade one or both of those 2 extra shields for food or gold. Otherwise it's on to the next rank, 20-shield items, which get built with 5% wastage, not really all that bad. If you're obsessed with avoiding shield wastage and the city will be at 3 shields for a whole 30 shields (unlikely; more common is locking into a multiple-of-3 groove and 3-shields production at the same time), you can build 30-shield items, but this generally means overobsessing with avoiding wastage, as the only such items are horsemen (you should be building chariots instead if you're still in the micromanagement stage), swordsmen (you should be building warriors), religious temples (if they'll bring an advantage, fine, and at 30 shields they often will, but building them just to avoid wastage is silly), and settlers (you should be building them from your granary cities unless a non-granary city is outgrowing your tile development, and if you're outgrowing your tile development, a new settler will often only worsen the problem unless you can build a worker elsewhere to compensate).
    A special case here is the ultra-early 3-shield capitol: do you build an archer/spearman to avoid that painful 20% wastage, or a warrior/scout because they are more useful in this phase? I agonize over this probably more than I should.

    4 shields - generally the result of shield waste or not having access to two 2-shield squares, yet still a lovely count. Goes perfectly into 20-shield items (generally even before the count rises) and fairly well into 30-shield items (6.7% wastage), though the shield count may rise inbetween. Goes perfectly into 40-shield items (though these are rare in the beginning, and the shield count will probably rise inbetween).

    5 shields - the king of early counts: a high count that goes perfectly into everything, including the hard-to-fit 10 shields needed for the highly useful warrior, scout, and worker units.

    6 shields - a painful fit for 10 shields. A hideous fit for 20 shields (same percentagewise as for 10 shields, but 20 shields is so easy to fit otherwise that it hurts more emotionally). A perfect fits for 30 shields. Not counting variations in shield count and settler builds, 6 shields is a level that is best saved for after you've got HBR or hooked-up iron.

    7 shields - terribly wasteful for everything but 20-shield items, 40-shield items, and really expensive items.

    8 shields - like 6 shields, but more so, with the difference that it is viable for building really expensive items in reasonable time.

    9 shields - painful wastage for everything less than about 60 shields -- this count is best left avoided, raised, lowered, or used for expensive builds.

    10 shields - no comment.

    ---------

    Since an average granaryless city (counting high-food cities) will grow in 8-9 turns, since workers will often raise shield counts in mid-build, and since a city may change squares worked to avoid food wastage when reaching the next size in that city or a neighboring city, most builds longer than 4 turns will see changed shield counts in mid-build, but still, there are enough constant-shield cases that the above considerations are often important.

    Because lower counts are generally harder to fit well (each wasted shield is a higher % of wastage, at the very least), one guideline -- all else being equal! -- is to set each city to building a 10-shielder, raise it to 20 if there'll be considerable wastage, and later also raise it to 30 if there'll be considerable wastage.

    Enough for now!

    USC

    * Factors of Production. For the purposes of this thread, we will count 1 post-waste shield as one FOP, 1 food as one FOP, and one post-corruption gold as 1/4 FOP. Gold is a bit fuzzy here, as it could end up wasted on 40-turn science or, when using the luxury slider, wasted on luxuries; meanwhile, it may take a long time (depending on level, map parameters, etc.) to reach a gold-rushing government, and until you do, gold's value will vary from worthless (no spending options) to 1/2 FOP (upgrades) to nearly-unquantifiable (ROPs, maps, techs, etc.)
    "'Lingua franca' je latinsky vyraz s vyznamem "jazyk francouzsky", ktery dnes vetsinou odkazuje na anglictinu," rekl cesky.

  • #2
    You know, I usually just build things without thinking about the fit between shields/cost. You have definitely opened my eyes (and thus created another obsessive micromanager).

    Thanks for that!!
    "Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
    "I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
    "Stuie is right...." - Guynemer

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    • #3
      I will try and adjust production so as not to waste too many shields (a 9-shield/turn city building warriors, for instance... eek). But no matter how hard you try, there is gonna be waste.

      If you're willing to really get into micromanagement, you have to take city growth (and corresponding rise in shield output) and worker jobs into account. And that means figuring out exactly what happens when cities grow and new citizens are allocated:

      -A city with high food intake will often autoallocate a new citizen to a low-food/high-shield tile (forest)
      -When the city grows, the new citizen's shield production counts toward THAT turn. So, with a little luck, your high-food cities will get more shields than you would normally think, and still keep up their growth rate, since you can then move the citizen back to a high-food tile.

      I don't often get into that level of detail in SP, and even if I do, it's just with the capitol. But in the demogames, for instance... well, you've got the time, you know?

      -Arrian
      grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

      The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

      Comment


      • #4
        But no matter how hard you try, there is gonna be waste.
        Trying to eliminate wastage would itself inevitably be wasteful even if it were possible -- for example building a barracks in an 8-shield town when what you really need there is a settler isn't too smart, and of course with no 90-shield buildings, you can't avoid waste with a 9-shield town. The idea is just to reduce it when reasonable.

        If you're willing to really get into micromanagement, you have to take city growth (and corresponding rise in shield output) and worker jobs into account. And that means figuring out exactly what happens when cities grow and new citizens are allocated:

        -A city with high food intake will often autoallocate a new citizen to a low-food/high-shield tile (forest)
        -When the city grows, the new citizen's shield production counts toward THAT turn. So, with a little luck, your high-food cities will get more shields than you would normally think, and still keep up their growth rate, since you can then move the citizen back to a high-food tile.
        There are too many special cases like this one involved once you move beyond the basic "x turns at a constant shields/turn", which is why I tried not to go into that much in what I wrote. But yeah, this stuff is important -- now what REALLY always gets me is the "grow, expand, entertain" bug, where AFAICT an auto-slapped entertainer gobbles that extra production you mentioned when you don't have a "spare" point of happiness in a town and its growth coincides with border growth (a nearly nonexistent phenomenon outside of each game's 10th turn, but then that's a very important turn).

        USC
        "'Lingua franca' je latinsky vyraz s vyznamem "jazyk francouzsky", ktery dnes vetsinou odkazuje na anglictinu," rekl cesky.

        Comment


        • #5
          I play with the happiness governor off, so I don't get autoplaced entertainers. Of course, that means I have to pay more attention to the luxury slider, or my cities will go into disorder. I often forget, and find myself loading up the autosave (unlike reloading for better RNG results, I have no problem with fixing something I genuinely meant to do, but forgot) - at least in the crucial early game. When you've got a granary city at +5 food/turn pumping out settlers, the pop is fluctuating awfully fast, and it's easy to forget to adjust the slider (I'll also often leave luxuries up higher than I need).

          -Arrian
          grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

          The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

          Comment


          • #6
            Interesting topic.

            The main thing to keep in mind when counting Shields is that your cities grow, and this growth is better long-term than a "perfect fit" for Shields and production items. It's better to waste 6 Shields building a Horsemen in a 9spt city once, than to slow down its growth on the way to 10spt.

            With this in mind, my heuristic is: grow cities as quickly as possible and as large as they will go under the constraints of happiness (and sometimes available tiles). While cities are growing, frequent micromanagement helps avoid waste by splitting, for example, a 30 Shield item into 2*7+2*8. This is the main reason why I like overlap between city radii (3-tile spacing or closer). Once the cities grow to their (temporary) maximum size, I then plan to slow their growth by working Plains with Mines, Hills, or Mountains, or simply by creating a Specialist (usually Scientists for 40-turn research).

            Remember that, although a 5spt city does not waste Shields on a 20 Shield build, a 6spt city is usually better because you can transfer those extra Shields to some other city if your city spacing is close enough. So in general I do not agree with artifically halting growth just to avoid Shield waste.

            Concerning the 3spt capital: yes, I obsess over this a lot too! One trick I've come to use is creating a "Commerce tile" that is only used when there is 1 Shield remaining in a build. If I've got a lake nearby, great, if not I'll put a Road on a Bonus Grassland by a River and then move on. This way, you can finish a 10-Shield unit wihtout wasting Shields, and get an extra couple Commerce in the process. I'll even use Coast (without Harbors if my Food output is high enough) to this end.

            There's a lot to talk about here, but it's all theory and therefore rather bland. What would be great is a few examples from real games (sort of what we've tried to do with AUSG101).


            Dominae
            And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

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            • #7
              I've got a great example, except it's "state secrets" from the PTW Demogame II. Or, for that matter, PTW Demogame I... IIRC, there was some pretty serious micromanagement of Eye of the Storm (not to mention other cities) for, oh, like most of the game. To the point where it was beyond me.

              Dominae makes a good point re: city spacing... yet another reason why the spacing I hate works so well - at least early on when it counts the most. *sigh* I've gotten used to 4-tile, but though I've used it, I really don't like 3-tile.

              Another thing I've been working on lately is trying to avoid wasting worker turns whenever possible. In the past, I wouldn't have batted an eyelash at ordering 2 non-industrious workers to both road a tile of flatland (1 such worker needs 3 turns, the two together do it in 2... but it's inefficient). I've been trying to avoid stuff like that, particularly early on. I haven't been playing industrious civs much, so I need to use my slowass workers the best way I can.

              -Arrian
              grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

              The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

              Comment


              • #8
                When they become available, teams of 1 Worker + 1 Captured Worker work real well for mines and roads on grass/plains.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Arrian
                  Another thing I've been working on lately is trying to avoid wasting worker turns whenever possible. In the past, I wouldn't have batted an eyelash at ordering 2 non-industrious workers to both road a tile of flatland.
                  Unlike counting Shields, I think that Worker actions is a bit of micromanagement that becomes second nature if you do it enough. I'm not much bothered by ordering every single Worker until well into the Medieval era, not only because I know it's important but because I spend very little time thinking about it.

                  Unfortunately, this will change with Conquests, because Industrious Workers are suddenly slower. This throws off a lot of math that I've come to rely on.


                  Dominae
                  And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jaybe
                    When they become available, teams of 1 Worker + 1 Captured Worker work real well for mines and roads on grass/plains.
                    Industrious civ putting a Road on flat land (Plains, Grassland, etc.), from least efficient to most efficient:

                    1 slave Worker
                    1 native Worker
                    1 slave Worker, 1 native Worker
                    2 native Workers

                    But notice that this list is also from most time-consuming to least time-consuming. So it's a judgement call whether or not you really need to send those extra Workers to Road that tile. If you're keeping up or ahead on tile improvements, it's always better to just send one slave Worker to do the job.


                    Dominae
                    And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Industrious workers are slower in C3C?!? Dang, now how am I going to get my oh, so satisfying fast worker fix after a few non-Industrious games?
                      Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

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                      • #12
                        The bonus is being dropped from 100% to 50%, apparently.

                        The thing it effects most in the early game, in my opinion, is forest chops. Whereas a 5-turn chop for a 10-shield payoff looks mighty good, a 8-turn chop doesn't look nearly as good. Still better than 10, of course.

                        -Arrian
                        grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

                        The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I am SO MUCH NOT a micro-manager.

                          City governors for me, thank you very much (except in special cases).

                          MM Workers? No way. My shorthand trick is to maximize work on shared tiles... using primarily 3-tile spacing, or 4-tile with camps, I prioritize not only high value tiles (a la cracker) but those that are shared first by three towns and then those by two.

                          Works for me.
                          The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                          Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

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                          • #14
                            I am an opportunistic micromanager. That is I will pay pretty close attention to workers until RR. I will pay some attention to towns, depending on the what is going on. I seldom try to squeeze out all the shields possible.

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                            • #15
                              Interesting, , i have not really thot about it this way.

                              What I built depends on what Resources and Terrain the tiles in the City Square have. Cities with wheat, river will produce Settlers. Cities with more shields produce barracks and military unit for early conquest. The rest built Workers or Catapults.

                              Before ending the Turn, I will glance at the map to look for Cities that will complete their built within 2 turns, to see if I can change the tiles (labor) to allow the City to built it 1 turn earlier. If that's not possible, and there are shield wastage, I will move some of the tiles to food or trade squares.

                              I usually stop doing this around the Industrial Age. Too many cities to look at. Exceptions are the big cities, and cities producing Wonders.
                              C3C ISDG Final Round : Actively Lurking

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