Yet Another Celtic Thread

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I'm sure I'll head for Republic/Democracy as soon as the Germans are crushed. I haven't seen their map but I'm sure they're not too big as they have little activity of any kind near my borders.

Who knows? I might stow a couple of GS + a settler on a caravel and try to trigger my GA when I build a new city somewhere. It's concievable - I haven't attacked the Germans yet.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I started several new games. I believe I quit the game in which I had crushed the limeys because someone else got the GL. In my current game, I have incredibly lush land and a good position in the tech race. My REXing has been some of the best I had ever done, and my neighbors (Germans, French, Vikings and Spaniards) haven't seem to have kept up. Haven't got their maps, but I've gotten every single city position I've wanted so far.

My cities are terribly underdefended - some are UNdefended - but I've got about 1400 GP under my belt already. I'm now building scores of barracks and vet warriors - I have plenty of iron ready to connect. That'll bring me about 18 GS if I save a little more money.

I'm not sure I'll get the Great Library (probably some nook overseas will), but I'm going to hold off my invasion of the nearby lands until right before feudalism, so I'll be able to keep up in tech and get the wonders I want built, most likely.

Still, I have to say, I doubt I could make it without this incredibly lush terrain. Numerous other Celtic games I have started up recently have landed me lush terrain but too many hostile expansionists to keep up, or survive, or wide open but worthless spaces... whole continents that can be mine, but only 1 luxury and a crippled position in terms of tech and infrastructure.

These Celts seem pretty damn hard to play as, for a militaristic/religious combo...

[Arrian]

I think part of the problem here is that you see the GS as your primary attack unit.

It doesn't have to be. Sure, it's a hefty advantage to have, and should be used. However, I would advocate trying to build a force of about 10 GSs, along with some horsemen (chariot -> horse upgrade is good here too) and spearmen.

If you go in with 10 GSs, 10 horsemen, and 5 spearmen, you're liable to friggin' waste whomever you're fighting. Your GA will allow you to build up a large horseman force, and maybe replace a few fallen GSs (I would only do that if a city, during your GA, can produce a GS in 2-3 turns. However, if a city has that type of production, you may wanna ask yourself why it isn't building a wonder). Horsies work fine, especially in large numbers.

Your elite GSs should be babied. They make excellent leader generators because of the 3 attack combined with the retreat ability. Just try to avoid allowing them to be attacked (hence the spearmen). GSs are great for "lazy war."

While they do their work, you concentrate on setting up for a transition to a knight-based force - by building horsemen.

-Arrian

[Theseus]

Excellent advice from Arrian, as always. Also, pay attention to shield production... task certain cities for Horse, and the appropriate cities for GSs with minimal waste.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

With so few neighbors, I may use 15+ GS to waste whoever's the most threatening, and use my GA to build libraries and marketplaces... then just build knights from scratch. Otherwise, I would take your advice.

Still, I just don't know about that GS unit. Even an elite 2-defense unit with retreat ability can die. Sure, it's good for something, but I'm inclined to wish it cost less. (I have read the numerous threads at this point, and concur that 45 shields would be the best, if possible, but c'est la vie).

[Arrian]

Of course you wish it costs less! So do I when I play the Celts!

It's not one of my favorite units, let's put it that way. I'd MUCH rather have Mounted Warriors (but keep the militaristic trait. Oh, the damage I'd do!).

Your point about an elite 2-defense unit w/retreat dying is valid, which is why I say baby your elites. Hold them back and bring 'em forward to kill off easy targets, then pull 'em back again. Don't let them get attacked. The number of times I've lost vet or elite GSs to swordsman attacks (with the attacking swordsman down to 1hp, of course)! Taking a 50-shield hit like that hurts, I know.

This is why I encourage you to use more horsemen instead.

With one neighbor, you probably want to hit them several times. Each time, take a city or two max, while slaughtering their spare troops (everything not nailed down to a city). Then make peace for whatever they have (or, if you're a despot or monarch, just keep the war running). This way, you can fish for Leaders and maximize the tech/gold/workers you can beat out of them.

A unit like the GS, of course, is best suited for a starting spot with multiple AI neighbors to beat on. That AU course we played was a good example (China, Persia, India, Rome... was that all? Crushed 'em all).

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, I've got 4 neighbors, which I think is a good amount. Anymore, my REXing wouldn't have been so spectacular, and with all the expanionists floating around (GOD I hope C3C fixes that irritating state of affairs) I was generally out-researched. Only 2 or 3 neighbors, we weren't getting enough techs in the mix. I fear the "advanced" continent is not ours, but nonetheless, I have enough luxuries and a good enough infrastructure that I had pretty much wage any type of war I want: leader-fishing, total extermination, you name it... and still have time to switch to Rep/Dem and build the strongest continent empire in the world.

What was my original point? I forget. So sue me. I'm working late on an early dismissal day and with all this coffee in my system I can't seem to stay "OT".

[Last Conformist]

Arrian, when I read your upgrade -15-Warriors-to-Gallic-Swords post, the thing that occurs to me that those 1200 gold could by 30 Immortals. GAK!, if you take my point ...

Ironically, the GS would have been markedly more deadly (in the hands of a reasonably competent human player) in the early versions of Vanilla, wherein retreat was automatic. The things would've been immortal ...

[Paddy]

Thanks all for some great advice on GS. I will need to look at how I treat them next time out myself.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I have to revise an earlier post and pitch my vote for the GS costing 40. Is that the cost of the Mounted Warrior? Then make the warrior cheaper, I guess, or make the only diff between the GS and the MW be that the GS requires Iron and the MW requires Horses...

...I did not enjoy seeing my 3/2/2 units NOT retreat 50% of the time... I did not enjoy building so few, even after saving massive amounts of cash for the upgrade... and I definitely did not enjoy the tiny window of time in which I could build the damn things.

I won as the Celts this weekend, and well enough by my standards, but I owe the success to horsemen and pikemen, not the GS.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Then make the warrior cheaper, I guess, or make the only diff between the GS and the MW be that the GS requires Iron and the MW requires Horses...

Clarification: By this I mean make both units 3-1-2.

[Arrian]

The MW is 30 shields. It is, therefore, one of the very best UU's in the game. At least on the face of it...

However, the MW is given to a non-militaristic (40-shield barracks) and non-industrious (slow starter) civ - the Iroquois. This means that setting up your civ's core and fielding a reasonable number of vet MWs takes time.

I would LOVE to have the MW while playing a militaristic civ. Oh, the power!! But the MW's dominance is at least partially blunted by the time it takes for the Iroquois to field a good number of them. Believe me, I've tried, and it just takes too damn long.

Last Conformist: yeah, the Iroquois were really hardcore before Firaxis changed the retreat rules (well, any civ using mobile units was).

-Arrian