How to handle the greek?

[bongo]

The greek UU, the hoplite is a tough and cheap defender. The normal way of dealing with them is of course to bring enough attackers but in my current game I'm in the rare situation that the greek have not yet had their Golden Age, thus my first loss vs a hoplite will trigger it. So far I have managed to kill the hoplites with a combination of catapults and strong attackers in the open and armies against their cities. It works but it is painfully slow. The up-side is that all the fighting give me lots of leaders(8 or 9 so far). The down-side is that I have to stay in monarchy to avoid WW and eventually other civs(the russians) will catch up with me tech-wise.

So far there have been no intercontinental contact between the other civs and I want to finish the greeks off before they tell the world what a backstabbing bastard I am.

With 20/20 hindsight vision I should probably declared war to the greek in 1000BC and triggered their GA so I didn't have to worry about it now.

How do you deal with the greek? Force them to have an early despotic GA? Wait til their UU is to weak?

[UnOrthOdOx]

A combination depending on the map. If I am forced (ie no other neighbors to pick on, or only carthage) I will simply attack them early, with combinations of horses (yes, I know they are weaker, retreat works wonders, though) and swords. Catapults are great for in the open as well, but taking cities can be painfull, especially hills...

Otherwise, Ill just wait and pick on someone else, even allying with the Greeks, thus still generating their early GA, just at the expense of someone elses units

[CerberusIV]

I recently abandoned a game after dealing with the Greeks. Monarch level and no fresh water so their cities could not grow above size 6.

I did them in with a strong bombardment force of 6 catapults and plenty of vet swords. It was made easier because they didn't have iron (I didn't have horses) and they failed to build barracks so the hoplites were only regulars. The catapults often miss so it requires patience and massing swordsmen so that when a couple of the catapults hit defenders you then attack with all available swords and overwhelm the defenders.

It is best to do this early so both you and they are in despotism. They will poprush defenders but sustained bombardment will keep their city sizes down and limit this.

I took four towns (and gained the Oracle and Colossus) and left them two small towns overseas by 50AD. I dropped the game because I was playing as the English (random civs) and really didn't fancy taking on my more powerful neighbours with such a difficult civ.

I would not hesitate to take on Greece at any stage of a game but Carthage is a much tougher challenge.

[Rhothaerill]

An early annihilation war against the Greeks is tough, though doable. If I'm forced into an early war with them I'd almost prefer sending defensive units to hunker down in their territory and pillage and burn their improvements. Pretty soon they'll either be forced to attack your defensive units (preferably fortified on high ground if possible) or they won't be able to produce anything and fall into second class AI civ status.
I don't like sending hordes of units to die in a suicidal frontal attack. Sneaky is the order of the day.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

HA! The best way to deal with the Greeks is the best way to deal with the Carthaginians as well: send them against each other. It can be difficult to do at times, but really, it's not so hard. Just start a war with one, harrass them (take workers, maybe hit a warrior here or there, and of course fight back against their archers) and BRIBE the other one to fight on your side. Now, try to stay out of harm's way and come to an early peace with the one you picked on. Let Carthage and Greece blow their GAs producing units to pound each other!

This can work out very nicely if you have Rome and Egypt along as well. The more the merrier. In a current game as the Aztecs, I've set Carthage and Greece against each other, Egypt against Carthage, Greece against Rome, and me against oscillating victims/agressors. Carthage and Greece could have grown to be big, scary empires, but by picking on the weakest and setting the potentially strongest against each other, I've set Carthage and Greece back for, well, the rest of the game.

Now, if this is NOT an option, what y'all have discussed above is good advice indeed. But why mass troops when some sucker - who you want to conquer eventually as well - can do it for you?

[Rhothaerill]

Ahh, the true subversive way. I like it and use it on occasion.

Just had a good thought for a new espionage tactic (probably for civ4)...use spys to sabotage relations between other countries without having to resort to going to war and pulling others in on your side.

Edit: Need to figure out a way for the AI to use the tactic too, or it would be too overpowered.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
Ahh, the true subversive way. I like it and use it on occasion.
Just had a good thought for a new espionage tactic (probably for civ4)...use spys to sabotage relations between other countries without having to resort to going to war and pulling others in on your side.

That would be a GREAT option, and one that's sorely missing... "provoke incident"... you could also do it to allow yourSELF to go to war, à la Pearl Harbor, Reichstag burning, etc. Wonderful!

[Rhothaerill]

It should be something that would be really expensive though. A lot of the espionage actions are too expensive for what they do, but this one SHOULD be expensive. But again, the AI should have a way to use it too or it's just another tool for the human player to get ahead.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

The possibilities are endless, but I guess this is a topic for another thread.

[Rhothaerill]

True. It might have already been discussed in other threads as well. I haven't gone through all the "what do we want in the next expansion" threads.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Originally posted by Rhothaerill
True. It might have already been discussed in other threads as well. I haven't gone through all the "what do we want in the next expansion" threads.

Neither have I - talk is cheap. I just want to play the damn thing. Maybe if I was a programmer, I'd feel differently, but I think we're getting what we're getting, and why bother howling at the moon for things we want. Civ, as great as it is, cannot capture all the wonderful intricacies of history.

[bongo]

Rhothaerill & Yahweh , excellent advice. I'll write them down in my big book of 'nasty ways of handling the AI'

I eventually did them in in the same way I started. A large force of catapults to soften up the defenders and two armies (swordsmen and chinese riders) as nutcrackers. Slow'n nasty. When my catapults were upgraded to cannons and my riders were upgraded to cavalry the greek were dead meat. They still have some cities left but they are so small and weak that a GA won't matter anymore. I still haven't lost against a hoplite

Pitting the romans(no carthagians) against the greek would probably work very well but as I started on a peninsula with more mountains than himalaya and the romans blocked my way to the more promising parts of the continent they had to leave rather early.

[dexters]

The greeks have consistently be a major competitive threat in all my games. I don't know why but I almost always don't like them and they take the similar position.

I think if you have a tech lead the Greeks are a hard bunch to please as the AI see you as a threat and are more often than not, annoyed with you.

Neither have I - talk is cheap. I just want to play the damn thing. Maybe if I was a programmer, I'd feel differently, but I think we're getting what we're getting, and why bother howling at the moon for things we want.

Well Yeweh , Soren is known to lurk in here and over a CivFanatics to read people's thoughts, exploits against the AI and implement fixes and or modifications to the AI along with a future patch. As long patches are coming, making suggestions will ultimately help Firaxis fine tune the game.

Also, Tavis, the producer of C3C asked the folks over at CivFantatics to put up a board for C3C for fans to discuss what they want to see.

I have no illusions about getting all the stuff on the wishlist in. But having no input is a long way from what we have now.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Point taken. Didn't mean to be nasty.

How about fixing Carthage a bit in one patch? Unless they get creamed in the early game, they are ALWAYS a MAJOR pain to deal with. Apparently they're supposed to build naval units and trade, but they always end up with massive land forces and huge, productive cities in my games, making them probably the only civilization that still gives me a run for my money at this point.

I guess I just don't like to see a Civ that died out in real life consistently turn out to be the #2 civ in all of my games, or at least the one that's the hardest to deal with.

[Jon Shafer]

Catapults are always your friend. Be sure to repay their kindness by giving them some action.