Maximize your Strategy: Persians

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

This thread is dedicated to strategies for achieving UP as the Persians. It is meant to be for the inexperienced and pro player, for the tiny map and huge map enthusiast; in other words, for civ players of all stripes who might want to play as the Persians.

I'll start the thread off by asking a few basic questions:

1. What do you research first? What is your research path in general in the ancient era?

2. Do you use your immortals? If so, when, and in what capacity? (this might sound like a stupid question, but in my opinion, it isn't, not now that Medival Infantry are around)

3. What is your policy towards your neighbors? This depends on the vagarities of each individual game, but in general what tact do you take with them?

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

I'll now try to get the ball rolling by answering my own questions.

Bear in mind that I started this thread because I generally have a hard time achieving UP as the Persians, and I want everyone's advice, including refutations to my own answers! My answers are, at best, guesses, and I hope you all will point out the flaws in my reasoning, and contribute some better solutions.

1. What do I research first? I play with cultural linking on, so my neighbors are most likely the Ottomans, the Zulu, the Babylonians, and the Arabs. Additionally, the Germans seem to be around often. Therefore, all starting techs will be in play except for the Wheel and Alphabet, so I should aim for one of those. I pick Alphabet, because it seems to be more "valuable" trading-wise, and it leads to Literature, which is my top priority as I want to start building those cheap libraries to spread culture and pull ahead of my neighbors in tech.

Iron Working is obviously a priority as well, but with so many expansionists around, there's a good chance that someone will pick that up. It's not too difficult to trade writing, or alphabet + masonry, for IW, in my experience.

I find that REXing is quite easy as the Persians, but if you're starting on rich land you probably have quite a few neighbors, and you want to be converting their cities while in their infancy to your Persian empire! So build those cheap libraries and let your culture dwarf theirs.

Also, don't forget the Great Library. Not essential perhaps, but very valueble nonetheless, and easy to get ahead in the race to build.

2. When and how do I use my immortals? I do NOT use my immortals to wage all-out war. Why? They do pack quite a wallop, but for such a brief period of time, and they move too damn slow for my taste. Additionally, look who you're up against!

Babylonians - if they win a counterattack, their GA is triggered, making them a more formidable foe.

Zulu - same goes for the Impi, and they tend to be even tougher.

Ottomans and Arabs - easier targets, but still, if you want to attack with sufficient numbers, you'll have to use your whole GA producing soon to be obsolete Immortals, and if the Arabs or Ottomans have horsemen, they also have a good chance of fighting back.

But above all else, the main reason I DON'T use my immortals early is that I want to use them to trigger my GA, and I want to use my GA to build wonders and improvements, and if I've got my basics covered (libraries, temples, marketplaces) THEN I want to produce a fast-moving offensive unit - Knights.

I always build an immortal or two, and obviously they make great counterattack units in case the Germans or Zulus get nasty on you early on (which they did in my current game ). But better yet, I prefer to wait until I've got one or two of the starter medival techs under my belt, and THEN loose an Immortal on whatever foe (hopefully one that's far away and doesn't pose a real threat).

Now my GA will be in effect at the ideal time, and I will end up with Sistine's, Leo's and Sun Tzu's... and a much stronger domestic base from which to wage "real" wars.

3. What is your policy towards your neighbors? Simply put: out-REX 'em but keep the peace! For some odd reason, the Persians never seem to START near enough Iron, so I don't want to provoke any costly early wars. Sure, the industriousness will help me create a wartime road system, but still, I don't want the Ottomans or Babs overtaking me culturally while I put down a city here or there, only to have my crude Zulu or Arab neighbors pop up somewhere else to harass me!

At the same time, I'm bound to INITIALLY fall behind in tech. My warriors, no matter how many I produce, are likely to fall behind in tech to Zulu and Arab scouts. So, swallow my pride, take whatever trades I can get, and start building libraries. Eventually, the tables will turn.

That being said, the first victims of my eventual war machine will hopefully be the Arabs, and then the Ottomans. I don't want any Ansar Warriors or Sipahi to enter the game, ever, period. And by the time I've got the well-developed Ottoman homeland in my possession, the Zulu Impi and Babylonian bowmen will be no threat (most likely they'll have already triggered their own GA). The Babylonians must die of course - they pose too great a cultural threat, especially if they enter the Industrial age unmolested. The Zulu's time will come at my own leisure, unless they're big baddies and next to be taken down a notch.

Agree? Disagree? Let's hear your comments!

[Jon Shafer]

Sorry for not answering the questions, I guess I'm just a non-conformist. I'll try to throw a bit of everything into my post though.

Immortals on their own are too slow and too vulnerable, especially for long-distance wars. Persia is a good early warmongering civ, but you need a balanced army to do this effectively. Finding and getting horses is actually as much of a priority to me as finding iron. The combination of Immortals and Horsemen can give you an amazing army.

I often go for IW, or I will go for the Wheel first, simply because finding the iron/horses is a very good thing. I won't connect my iron yet, and stockpile vet Warriors, while trying to build my treasury. When the time comes (they attack me, or I see an opening), it's time for mass-upgrade.

During this time I usually focus on trying to pull off a super-REX, usually neglecting culture and letting my industrious workers pick up the slack. Once I'm ready, I let the Immortals and Horsemen fly, and that's that.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Trip
I won't connect my iron yet, and stockpile vet Warriors, while trying to build my treasury. When the time comes (they attack me, or I see an opening), it's time for mass-upgrade.

bingo.

thats the major trick for most of the ironworking based UUs, although the celtic one is a costly upgrade.

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Hmm. A lot of people would agree with this trick, but it seems to waste so much time to me to be building all those warriors.

How much would it cost to upgrade, say, 20 veteran warriors?

[Arrian]

20 warriors -> 20 immortals = 800 gold (40 per)

I do the warrior -> sword upgrade all the time (though more like 10) and the chariot -> horse one too. It works, Yahweh. It works wonders.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Well, I can certainly see it's utility, although it might set back my huge defense upgrade I typically do after Leo's... but if I've just conquered x # of cities with my upgraded units, I guess it sort of pays for itself, doesn't it?

[Arrian]

Yep.

The conquest of several empires usually costs me roughly 800 gold in upgrades (10 swords, 20 horse). With those forces, I can beat the crap out of a couple of civs, gaining cities, tech, slaves, gold, and maybe a leader or three. The leader, of course, can turn those conquered cities into a paradise via rushing the FP.

I build more units after the upgrade (horsies & spears, not swords usually, since the sword upgrade path sucks. My initial 10 are "fire & forget") to provide reinforcements, but the upgrade allows me to get moving much faster.

-Arrian

[Yahweh Sabaoth]

Thanks for the info.

I assume the treatment of Immortals would be the same?

[Arrian]

No, actually, that's the problem. I like using swordsmen as my first major wave of attackers (I'm not including ultra-early wars like settler bopping and other disruption). But there is no way I'm gonna do that with Immortals, because it would trigger my GA too soon. I absolutely hate despotic GAs.

Unacceptable, unless in extreme circumstances: despotic GA

Acceptable: Monarchy/Republic GA, REXing complete.

Perfection: Republic GA with Palace/FP setup just how I want 'em (and decently developed cities). This almost has to be an early medieval GA.

-Arrian

[badams52]

Haven't played the Persian's for a long time, since I played them early and often, I wanted to try other civs. But in my early games, I played the Persians most often.

I personally use all out massive immortals assault without any horses. For each city (usually I'm expecting 2 spearmen defense) a stack of 5 immortals usually does the trick (6 or 7 if you're worried or attacking a capitol), so I use multiple fronts (which makes up for the lack of mobility) and hit my neighbors hard. After the immortals have finished their clean-up, I usually kick back, relax and wait for tanks.

If I'm going to build immortals, lot's of em, and wipe out my neighbors early, I don't need horses - knights - cavalry and so I skip them all together and build city improvements.

For me, after the immortal era, the game is all but over, just a matter of which victory I want to claim.

In other words, I play them completely differently than Yahweh. They are my favorite early war civ and who cares about the baby's bowmen or the zulu's impis which are just target practice for my massive buildup of immortals. And research wise, I always let the AI research everything and trade for it 'cept literature which they like to skip.

[Frank Johnson]

The warrior upgrade path would work even better for someone like say, the Romans, who can build legionaries almost exclusively for every role untill military tradition / nationalism. ^_^

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by Yahweh Sabaoth
Hmm. A lot of people would agree with this trick, but it seems to waste so much time to me to be building all those warriors.

How much would it cost to upgrade, say, 20 veteran warriors?

20 gold a pop with accel prod, 40 normally. so 400 or 800 gold.

if you have 20 though, you're insane, or have some of the best production i've ever seen. it's good for about 8-12 warriors. if you have that much production to burn, build a settler (your pop is prolly over 4 anyway), or some spearmen

[vmxa1]

Originally posted by Arrian
Unacceptable, unless in extreme circumstances: despotic GA

Acceptable: Monarchy/Republic GA, REXing complete.

Perfection: Republic GA with Palace/FP setup just how I want 'em (and decently developed cities). This almost has to be an early medieval GA.

-Arrian

Did I just hear Riders?

[Arrian]

Or Samurai.