How do walls really work?

[alexman]

Now that people are playing more MP, walls seem to have come somewhat into fashion against other humans. But how do they really work? Here are some tidbits of information that you may or may not know:

• Walls in Civ3 are defined as any improvement with a non-zero bombard defense. This improvement gets the special walls graphic, and its benefits supposedly expire when the city reaches size 7.
• In reality, it's only the bombard defense that expires when the city reaches size 7. The defense bonus remains until the walls are sold or destroyed, no matter what the size of the city.
• When you attack a city with a ground unit (or a marine), the defender gets the defensive bonus of the wall.
• When you bombard a city with ground artillery (but not with ships or planes), the first thing that gets targeted are the walls. If the bombard unit wins against the walls' bombard defense, then the walls are destroyed. If the walls win, then all improvements, citizens, and units in the city are safe. This happens only if the city is size 6 or smaller.
• When you attack a city with an air unit, the bombard defense of walls do not apply, but the defensive bonus does. The bombard unit has a chance of hitting either a unit, an improvement, or a citizen. Once the target is determined, combat is resolved between the bombard strength of the air unit and the modified defensive strength of the defending unit (which always includes any wall and terrain bonus), the improvement's defensive value (16), or a citizen's defensive value (16), depending on what is the determined target.
• The same as with air bombardment is true for naval bombardment, except that coastal fortresses have a chance to protect the city or get destroyed (just like the walls do against ground artillery) against the first bombarding naval unit.

[Dominae]

Thanks for the info, alexman (nice to see you back, too)!

Pretty fishy that you only post this after you build the Great Wall in Strat PBEM 4...but it will soon expire (if not already), so all is well.


Dominae

[Nakar Gabab]

Originally posted by Dominae
Pretty fishy that you only post this after you build the Great Wall in Strat PBEM 4...but it will soon expire (if not already), so all is well.

The smart player never shows his hand until the pot is already won, Dominae.

I gotta start building walls now. One more thing to do in my early cities, dangit! Oh well, they're cheap.

[Jaybe]

When you bombard a city with ground artillery (but not with ships or planes), the first thing that gets targeted are the walls.

Beg to differ with you on this point. I have repeatedly built walls and had them being the first to be destroyed by non-ground bombardment (I think it was ships). PTW single-player (late Nov. 2002).

[Arrian]

But wouldn't a coastal fortress, if the city had one, be targetted first for naval units? Then walls?

-Arrian

[alexman]

Originally posted by Jaybe

Beg to differ with you on this point. I have repeatedly built walls and had them being the first to be destroyed by non-ground bombardment (I think it was ships). PTW single-player (late Nov. 2002).

Ok, since you beg...

But the fact that your walls got destroyed first doesn't mean that they were actually part of the bombard defense process. They could have been randomly selected as the damaged item after a hit on a city improvement was determined. Trust me, I just did some extensive testing.

[alexman]

Originally posted by Arrian
But wouldn't a coastal fortress, if the city had one, be targetted first for naval units? Then walls?

Yes to the first part, but no to the second. As far as naval (and air) bombardment is concerned, walls are just as likely to be destroyed as any other improvement in the city (except the CF, of course).

[Jaybe]

Doh! It is POSSIBLE that walls were the only improvement I had remaining at the time (that game initiated my hatred for Hannibal).

[Catt]

Re: How do walls really work?

Originally posted by alexman

• In reality, it's only the bombard defense that expires when the city reaches size 7. The defense bonus remains until the walls are sold or destroyed, no matter what the size of the city.

Someone else divined the same thing at CFC (can't rememnber the poster's name) -- I've got to believe that this is a bug and will be fixed (assuming there is another patch) since every instance of documentation (and possibly Firaxian comment?) seems to indicate that walls shouldn't work this way. Do you think it is a bug?

Makes the AU version of the GW quite an intersting wonder (even moreso for an AI - more likely to be on defense than a human).

Off-Topic: Long time no see, alexman. Good to see you back!

Catt

[alexman]

Re: Re: How do walls really work?

Originally posted by Catt

Do you think it is a bug?

Yes, it's definitely a bug introduced in PTW.

In vanilla civ3, walls were defined as any improvement with either a non-zero defensive bonus, or a non-zero bombard defense. All such improvements got the walls city graphic, and became obsolete for cities greater than size 6.

In PTW, the above approach would obviously not work, since the civil defense has a defensive bonus but is supposed to work for any size city. Firaxis decided to change the definition of walls to be any improvement with a non-zero bombard defense. Unfortunately, they forgot to make all other properties besides the bombard defense (such as the defensive bonus) of such improvements become obsolete after size 6. Note that the bombard defense still becomes negated after size 6, even in PTW.

Makes the AU version of the GW quite an intersting wonder (even moreso for an AI - more likely to be on defense than a human).

The AU mod Great Wall is very powerful before metallurgy, but the player that builds it can actually be worse-off after metallurgy, as all the walls (and their defensive bonus) vanishes. Players that built walls in their towns before they became cities continue to get the defensive bonus, but the GW player can no longer build walls in his cities unless he starves them back to size 6.

[Dominae]

Re: Re: Re: How do walls really work?

Originally posted by alexman
Players that built walls in their towns before they became cities continue to get the defensive bonus, but the GW player can no longer build walls in his cities unless he starves them back to size 6.

Sooo...I can expect to see many starving American cities in the near-future in Strat 4? Just wondering...


Dominae

[Nor Me]

Re: Re: Re: How do walls really work?

Originally posted by alexman
The AU mod Great Wall is very powerful before metallurgy, but the player that builds it can actually be worse-off after metallurgy, as all the walls (and their defensive bonus) vanishes. Players that built walls in their towns before they became cities continue to get the defensive bonus, but the GW player can no longer build walls in his cities unless he starves them back to size 6.

Yes, there is a disadvantage immeadiately after metallurgy. But it's only a real disadvantage if you have fixed borders. Captured cities may have no opportunity to have walls anyway. The walls bonus is less significant in industrial-era metropolises.
From experience, it still doesn't stop your cities from falling to spearmen.

[alexman]

Re: Re: Re: Re: How do walls really work?

Originally posted by Nor Me
From experience, it still doesn't stop your cities from falling to spearmen.

It's well known that spearmen routinely kill tanks, do you expect them to fail to kill a defender hiding behind a crummy wall?

[Inverse Icarus]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How do walls really work?

Originally posted by alexman


It's well known that spearmen routinely kill tanks, do you expect them to fail to kill a defender hiding behind a crummy wall?

if you have hoplite or numidian merc (3) fortified (+25%) in a metropolis (+100%), on a hill (+50%) across a river (+25%), it has a defense of 9, which is no easy tak for a tank

i once had this early game with the great wall instead of the metro (double wall, 100%), while the enmies were throwing swordsmen / knights / mideval inf at it.

i never saw a defensive great leader before that game

[Nor Me]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How do walls really work?

Originally posted by UberKruX
while the enmies were throwing swordsmen / knights / mideval inf at it.

This is where they went wrong. They should have been using spearmen instead.