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Originally posted by Trip
If you think about things like that, then that would make all of western Europe 'German' then, excepting Ireland and Scandanavia.
Long post, but I want to pinpoint some elements of French history, to show that our 'sissiness' reputation mostly comes from our 'incompetence' (which is much more real)
To be precise, the French are a Latin people, with some Celtic interbreed. The Franks weren't many enough to overhaul the complete population, they were more conquerors than settlers. It resulted the Franks became at first the military elite, and later the nobility (who were rumored to have "blue blood" because blue is the traditional Germanic colour).
And France did win many battles even when Napoleon wasn't around (it almost matched Germany in WW1, even if it needed its allies to break the status quo for instance. And no, the French didn't fled from the horrible bloodbath).
The reputation of sissiness of the French comes from their defeat in WW2, and maybe from their defeat in Vietnam, and now the refusal to go to war when peace is possible (much like the Canucks or modern Germans actually).
The blatant incompetence of the French generals was shown again in the first Vietnam war. While the kill ratio is clearly in French favor (that's what we can expect from a modern army fighting a guerilla), the defeat of Diên Biên Phû is exceptionnaly significant.
Before peace talks of Genava, the army wanted to defeat Viets badly, to raise the French bargaining power. Massive troops were gathered in Diên Biên Phû, a small patch of flat land under the hills. A military airport has been built, as well as fortifications, and soon, many soldiers kept the place. The spirit of the upcoming battles was 'let the savage Viets come with their spears and die as they run to our bunkers' .
Of course, the Viets came with cannons sold by China, and calmly dispatched them on the hills without the French noticing something big was coming (thick jungle to cover the moves). You can imagine how badly the modern French army was defeated. The irony is that, if the French had retreated this time, they would have scored something big : a big chunk of the Viet army was stucked in this useless zone, and hadn't any vehicle to move faster, while the French had planes, and could have dispatched troops in another, undefended area of the front almost immediately (if you want to make fun of the French military, I strongly suggest you keep the Diên Biên Phû example in mind... to my knowledge, even Azincourt wasn't as dumb )
As btw, during Algeria war, French troops massively tortured people, including completely innocent people, to get info to fight terrorism. So much for sissiness, I'd like we'd have been more sissy this time.
Today, the French military has peacekeeping functions in Europe, and some in Africa and Asia. The places our soldiers are in, I doubt many of you brave Americans from Apolyton will want to be there - I sure don't (as a matter of fact, American troops do the destroying part, mostly from their planes, while European troops participate much more in peacekeeping, because of the superior numbers of their infantry).
Maybe our reluctance to go to war comes from the fact we have millenia of destruction and massacres on our territory, and that the sheer horror of both world wars really made us hate war in most circumstances. Imagine, in the next war, you suffer several 11th Sept. each day : maybe then you'll understand we're not as gung ho as you.
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
About 45 minutes, because I know all this by heart
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Originally posted by Spiffor
About 45 minutes, because I know all this by heart
Don't tell anyone (especially Dejon), but I've always liked France and French history. I just find it sad that DeGaulle so easily twisted France into hating the United States. Which then twisted the majority of Americans into hating France. I take a protagonist role in the hopes that French citizens will wake up to the fact that they've become somewhat ostracized by other nations and will become less anti-everything not France.
Unfortunately, DeGaulle was much better at convincing France to hate everyone else than I am at convincing France that maybe everyone else isn't out to get them.
Liking France as an American isn't a safe attitude to have. If it hadn't been for the Middle East, America might have been plotting invasion routes into France. I think we have a seaborne invasion map around here somewhere come to think of it.......
Well informed post, Spiffor! Not that long ago, I did (a localization of) one multimedia title on WW1, another one on WW2, and yet another one covering - beside other notable modern military events - Dien Bien Phu, I have to agree to everything you've said. Incompetence, that's the curse of the Modern French military.
Actually, De Gaulle fostered a hate for America only. This contrasts with permanent signs of friendship shown by the State towards some neighbours (especially Germany, I could say I'm a product of the French-German friendship ).
AFAIK, I never heard any significant hate for France, except by some people from Algeria (obviously) until I went on these boards
I understand why many Americans dislike France, because they are the same reasons why many French dislike America : it's a big clash of egoes, since both country and cultures think they can only teach to the other, and not learn from it
And thanks for loving my country If one day you go to Paris, ask me for good places to visit, to avoid tourist crap
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
WW2 was a major turning point for many nations. The US and its entire identity springs from the experiences of WW2.
Prior to that America had the idea that we had all the resources and land we needed and had no reason to go to war or involve ourselves in other nations politics. Which is why the US always drug its feet when it came to joining WW1 and WW2.
Pearl Harbor convinced America that we HAD to keep our troops and nose in everyone's business because they would attack us with no provocation.
Then as American forces liberated Europe and Asia after the oppressive and racial regimes of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan the local citizenry so encouraged and welcomed the troops (they had been occupied by troops that viewed them as racially inferior and often resorted to cruel treatment) that Americans began viewing themselves as the Great White Knights who were the sole source of justice in the world.
When these soldiers came home their experiences and attitudes were then passed on and ingrained in their children and to their families which had a major effect on the United States' concept of its self.
Ironically, Americans were started to drift out of this bloated opinion of themselves and shift towards the idea of "why the heck are we paying taxes to station troops all over the world". Then old Osama pulls that Sept 11 thing and just reinforces the attitude that had been passed on from the WW2 generation.
He outta get some award for most incompetent political leader or something.
From what I've seen of people here in America (especially Republican warmongers ) is that there [i]is[/i[ actually a dislike (or at least a general looking-down upon) of France, relative to most other countries in Europe or the world.
France has had terrible luck ever since 1812, and not the best leadership. I don't think the French soldier is any worse than their counterparts in other countries, but their incredibly poor leadership over the years has given the entire French Army a reputation of being incompetant.
Originally posted by Spiffor
I understand why many Americans dislike France, because they are the same reasons why many French dislike America : it's a big clash of egoes, since both country and cultures think they can only teach to the other, and not learn from it
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Originally posted by Duddha
the French are also just plain stupid.
Says an American
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
Since I'm the only French here, I felt I had to this
Postcount ++
"I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis
We all know what happened : German troops simply turned around the Maginot line, and took it easily (it wasn't even planned someone could attack from behind 
, the bold one became a hero of French history.
Not that long ago, I did (a localization of) one multimedia title on WW1, another one on WW2, and yet another one covering - beside other notable modern military events - Dien Bien Phu, I have to agree to everything you've said. Incompetence, that's the curse of the Modern French military.
).
) is that there [i]is[/i[ actually a dislike (or at least a general looking-down upon) of France, relative to most other countries in Europe or the world.
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