Public Announcement from Gathering Storm

[Master Zen]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph

MZ: Would the United States be pleased if somebody provided Iran and North Korea with Uranium and nuclear technology? You may say yes, but somehow I have my doubts. And they aren't even technically at war.

Many people likewise aren't really pleased at the fact the US provides Israel with so much military aid. Aid works both ways, and which ever way you look at it, someone will get pissed.

But, just look at RL how in the last 50 years the countries which stood for freedom and democracy now stand for imperialist aggression.... and we're at 20 years per turn now?

(not like we have any iron to offer anyway )

[zeit]

GS' so called "demands" are nothing more just being direct and honest with regard to this issue. No one seriously believes that trading Iron to Vox at this point will do nothing to their relationship with the GS. When you add to that the fact that Vox's agression and treachery has brought this war upon us, as Nathan had said, you just can't expect the GS to see it favorably.

I just can't see where the "world-threatening", as E_T so assuredly puts it, comes into this.

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Master Zen
Ever thought that someone may well provide raw materials simply for the sake of economic profit? Why so much paranoia to assume that everyone is just ganging up on GS by providing your enemy with resources?

During WW2 the US did not embargo Axis goods until well into the conflict. Would that have been reason enough for Britain to feel the US betrayed them? Case in point for WW1 too.

If you'll check your history, in WWII, the U.S. engaged in gross violations of neutrality in favor of England and Russia with our lend-lease program. I don't know what our policy was with regard to consumer goods and such, but our military trade was very much in favor of the Allies. Germany would have been fully justified in declaring war over those violations, but however offended they were over our violations of neutrality, they were better off with us merely as arms suppliers than with us as active combatants. I seriously doubt that at any time in either world war, America's overall trade policy favored the Axis or Central Powers over England and its allies to any significant degree.

I would have no objection at all to other nations' engaging in clearly non-military economic relations with Vox. But when it comes to supplying overtly military resources, any profits another civ makes come at a price in blood to our forces. The civ conducting the sale profits, and our troops die as a result. Seeking profit without regard to what it costs us does not have the same overt hostility that deliberately trying to help Vox fight us would, but it can hardly be considered good for relations either, can it?

Nathan

[Harovan]

Germany already was at war with the United States since Pearl Harbor (significantly before Lend-Lease), as a part of the treaty it had with its ally Japan. But I think such discussions don't belong in this thread, rather in the OT.

[nbarclay]

Just to clarify what DeepO said, we have contemplated the possibility of using a declaration of war and a naval blockade should that become necessary to cut off a foreign supply of iron for Vox. We are not contemplating active warfare over the matter. (I really hadn't wanted to reveal so much of our military thinking in public, but I consider it necessary lest DeepO's words be viewed as a vastly greater and more explicit threat than they really are.)

Nor are we saying that supplying Vox with iron would, in and of itself, destroy another team's hopes of having good diplomatic relations with us. But it would be quite capable of nudging our attitude a notch or two (e.g. from Polite to Cautious or Annoyed, to use game terms), and that could easily have an impact on close choices in future negotiations.

Nathan

[Aeson]

Would GS be so kind as to send us their World Map, so that we can verify your claims?

If you have everyone else's world map it's pretty easy to figure out how many tiles you can't see. Take the mapsize * (1 - (Waterlevel + .03)) and that will give a pretty good estimate of how many land tiles there are on the map. Then start counting! (and yes, I've already counted, I just don't want to deprive any of you of that joy!)

[nbarclay]

Originally posted by Sir Ralph
Germany already was at war with the United States since Pearl Harbor (significantly before Lend-Lease), as a part of the treaty it had with its ally Japan. But I think such discussions don't belong in this thread, rather in the OT.

I think the matter is relevant in this thread for purposes of analogy. I used to have a strong interest in WWII, especially air and naval aspects, and that included at least a couple books about the Battle for the Atlantic. To clarify the timeline, I'm not sure exactly when Lend-Lease started, but I know it was operating on a major scale by the end of 1940. Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor until December, 1941, and Germany declared war on the U.S. a few days after that. So for more than a year, the U.S. was being "neutral" very much in England's and Russia's favor without there being a legal state of war or active combat between German and U.S. forces.

[BigFree]

HAHAHA

Is it a threat or not a threat?

On one hand GS member's are saying:
"it is a friendly warning to other teams "
"I'm certainly not making any kind of specific threats."
"We also ask that you keep in mind that providing military aid to our enemies cannot possibly be good for long-term relations with Gathering Storm."
"Who sees this as a threat, must have a reason to think so."


On the other they also say:
"It is such a key military resource, that providing it to them can only be seen as a military alliance against us."
"If we need to declare war on a team to keep Vox from getting iron, we will, and we won't consider it an unprovoked attack."
"If you provide iron to Vox, you're signing a military alliance against us, even if you don't ship a single unit onto our continent. Don't blame it on us if we later take that reason as justification for a declaration of war."
"Please don't disrupt our friendly intentions towards you, don't ignore this warning and provoke us."
"when it comes to supplying overtly military resources, any profits another civ makes come at a price in blood to our forces"


I'm not on one side or the other on this issue. I may feel the same way if it were my team, but these statements are contradictory. Is is a friendly warning(whatever that means) or a threat that GS will declar war on any nation who supplies Vox with Iron?

P.S. How would you even find out who did it if they did it? Just curious...

[Harovan]

Originally posted by nbarclay
To clarify the timeline, I'm not sure exactly when Lend-Lease started, but I know it was operating on a major scale by the end of 1940.

Germany attacked the Soviet Union June 22th, 1941. Until this day, they've been allies.

[Aeson]

It's an attempt to show us as a bunch of mentally unstables with way too many pointy sticks and no one (appologies to Vox) to poke with them BigFree.

In answer to your PS... it's very simple.

[nbarclay]

I checked an encyclopedia, and the Lend-Lease act was signed in March, 1941. So what I'm remembering from 1940 was less flagrant (but still not trivial) leanings in favor of England before then. In any case, in WWII, England had every reason to be happy with America's trade practices. It was the Axis powers that had reason to be seriously displeased.

[nbarclay]

BigFree, as I said, DeepO's post includes some language that goes way overboard compared with anything the team as a whole has contemplated. As for my own reference to a "price in blood," I was referring to a price we would pay, not to a price we would attempt to exact from Vox's iron supplier. The point is that supplying Vox with iron is not just a simple economic transaction that has no effect on anyone else, any more than selling someone a gun when you know he'll use it to rob a store is a simple economic transaction with no effect on anyone else. (Yes, my analogy here might be considered a bit extreme, but try telling that to the widows and orphans of Gathering Storm troops killed by iron weapons that Vox could not make without foreign help.)

[Harovan]

Originally posted by nbarclay
I checked an encyclopedia, and the Lend-Lease act was signed in March, 1941. So what I'm remembering from 1940 was less flagrant (but still not trivial) leanings in favor of England before then. In any case, in WWII, England had every reason to be happy with America's trade practices. It was the Axis powers that had reason to be seriously displeased.

Well, I wasn't aware, that Americas help for Great Britain fell also under the Lend-Lease act. I trust your source on this point. The Mutual Aid Agreement between the USA and the Soviet Union (what I was talking about) was signed June 11th, 1942.

[zeit]

Another simple clarification, that might have been overlooked:

War on Iron trader = blockade on Vox possible.

According to my knowledge you have to be at war with the two parties in order to stage such blockade.

[Wittlich]

And here we go folks - GS speading its will on the rest of the world.

But let me leave you with this thought: Only to remeber... this is a warning sign and all civilizations should think deeply about it (read between the lines)..."what pray tell, will GS be demanding of the world next?"