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  • #16
    Devil's Advocate

    Hmmm,

    The majority of discussion seems valid but also seems to be based on one or two assumptions: Single Player Mode and/or Playing against the AI. If those assumptions are correct, then the stream of yuppie yesses above makes sense. Now as devil's advocate, let me propose a scenario/argument or two where this makes a bigger difference: Multi-Player and/or small maps.

    Resources are key to winning the game, and arguably the most important resources are the strategic resources, followed by luxury, since they are so hard to replicate and so rare.

    In rebuttal to the argument about securing resources early on, I have a point to make. Since no civ starts with iron, and only one starts with the wheel, it may take a while to know if you have the strategic resources you need in that capital city. Roads will help you get resources, but the fact of the matter is the best way to get a resource is to claim it FIRST and one of the best ways to claim it and defend it is to get a city to it and build right on top of it before anyone else can.....this favors pumping out the settler sooner and claiming as much land as possible as quick as possible before anyone else can.....cities 2 turns earlier will help with this. And the smaller the map, the more difference claiming those cities will be. Since the first cities may be the only ones you get before discovering your border with a neighbor. Once you get past small map size though, the roads will kick in, but before then roads take quite a while to build the settlers are going to come before you can have enough roads to matter (especially if you are not industrious) Build more workers you say? Well, you sacrifice more settlers and thus cities I say.

    Another point.....the AI seems to pillage mainly when it helps in a war to cut off a supply line. In MP, especially if you are facing the Zulus, Aztecs, Greeks, or Carthagians, you are going to deal with players who will constantly and unrelentlessly pillage just to paralyze your production, movement, and progress in general and without even attempting to conquer your city. Workers out building roads are easy prey to become Aztec/Zulu slaves. And the precious road network you build early on will be easy to pillage since you probaly don't have enough armies yet to defendevery sqaure of it. Now on the flipside if you are building settlers and defenders and doing it sooner than everyone else you will get your first 5-7 cities much faster (especially if building a ring around your capital), and that can help you make a perimeter sooner to seal off some of your lands. Those lands that are sealed off can then make roads and improvements without fear, because the frontal cities will give them enough warning to respond to pillagers. Additionally the pillagers will have to pass through a lot of your empire to get to them, and you will have more chances to take pot shots at them before they pillage. In fact, if they notice there is nothing to pillage, they may turn their attention to a more vulnerable player who has something to pillage. Anyone who has faced Aztec/Zulu pillaging swarms in MP can attest to the frustrations I have pointed out.

    Score is another consideration. Try adding that first worker to your capital in MP and notice the slight score difference. Notice the difference grow when you build your second city 2-5 turns before your enemies. In short games with a time limit and powergraph decision, score matters and this strategy will help.

    Also please remember that the context of my arguments increases for civs that are not industrious since the opportunity cost of building roads/improvements is much greater since it takes so much longer.

    So in light of Multiplayer ( the game is called Play the World ), small maps, and score....let's see if that makes a difference to you.
    Luck favors the skilled because it knows it will not be wasted.

    Comment


    • #17
      The first Worker?
      Make other tile improvements and Build roads to expand.

      Unfortunately is there no multiple poll.

      Comment


      • #18
        As someone who has tested the "join the Worker on turn 1" hypothesis, I can confirm that it does not work. Many players seriously underestimate the huge effect early tile improvements have on later success.

        The argument that non-Industrious civs benefit from this strategy while Industrious ones do not strikes me as odd. I would say the non-Industrious civs need their Worker more, because if they lose it first turn they've got some big catching up to do, terraforming-wise.

        I guess if you're playing a half hour game, joining your Worker for points might work. But for any game that lasts a reasonable amount of time, you'll always get your points worth by not joining the Worker.

        Finally, the argument that terraforming is not good in MP because so many players pillage is interesting, but also faulty. A lot of MP is about guessing what your opponent is up to, and planning in consequence. It would be pretty cool to see 4-5 Hoplites show up to do some pillaging, and find nothing to pillage. What a waste of time for the Greeks! But the problem is that this maneuver leaves you utterly weak economically, so much so that the Greeks are probably 4-5 Hoplites worth of production up on you. You can only change your basic strategy up to a point; not terraforming is taking it a bit too far.

        But, all this said, this a very commendable example of "thinking outside the box". Players who do this are bound to win more MP matches than those who do not.


        Dominae
        And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Dominae
          As someone who has tested the "join the Worker on turn 1" hypothesis, I can confirm that it does not work. Many players seriously underestimate the huge effect early tile improvements have on later success.

          The argument that non-Industrious civs benefit from this strategy while Industrious ones do not strikes me as odd. I would say the non-Industrious civs need their Worker more, because if they lose it first turn they've got some big catching up to do, terraforming-wise.

          I guess if you're playing a half hour game, joining your Worker for points might work. But for any game that lasts a reasonable amount of time, you'll always get your points worth by not joining the Worker.

          Finally, the argument that terraforming is not good in MP because so many players pillage is interesting, but also faulty. A lot of MP is about guessing what your opponent is up to, and planning in consequence. It would be pretty cool to see 4-5 Hoplites show up to do some pillaging, and find nothing to pillage. What a waste of time for the Greeks! But the problem is that this maneuver leaves you utterly weak economically, so much so that the Greeks are probably 4-5 Hoplites worth of production up on you. You can only change your basic strategy up to a point; not terraforming is taking it a bit too far.

          But, all this said, this a very commendable example of "thinking outside the box". Players who do this are bound to win more MP matches than those who do not.


          Dominae
          hi ,

          just one Q , to all of you as players "why on earth would you want the first worker to join the city anyway"

          have a nice day
          - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
          - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
          WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by panag

            just one Q , to all of you as players "why on earth would you want the first worker to join the city anyway"

            have a nice day
            A good point. Wheres the fun in counting turns and look at the theoretic chanses for pillaging and a "two turn faster to the resources" settler.

            Lets play the game. not make it a scientificly master degree.
            to get away from the world, I use my computer.
            to reach out to the world, I use the Internet.
            To play the world, I use Civ III

            Comment


            • #21
              Why?

              In answer to "why?".......first of all, because its there. Dominae, excellent response, I appreciate the input and your perspective from actual testing. This is a controversial practice to me, and indeed not one that I am fully convinced is always of value, but believe may have appropriate contexts. My testing is also starting to favor the results you have mentioned, with one other exception:

              The MP Aztec Rush Scenario:

              Without doubt, the Aztecs are more and more deadly the earlier and steadier they can launch those jaguars ( and no one else can launch 2 movement attackers from the beginning ). I have noticed that by joining the worker to the city on the first turn, Aztecs can often generate 5 shields per turn from the start. This translates to a jaguar being produced every single turn, even right from the start. (assuming accelerated production, which is bread and butter to MP games). Pumping out units like that in the earliest turns of the game can devastate unprepared neighbors and even prepared neighbors (with a spearman or 2 warriors) that live anywhere close, (this is especially appropriate for the tiny/small MP environment as well)

              Back to the disrespectful question of "WHY?" that some critics have so quickly issued without giving the matter adequate thought: This may help to understand how much more you need to be ready than you think when "dueling 1 vs. 1" in MP with a player who chooses the Aztecs. Although I play for fun too, I have one oxymoronic point to make to my critics...if you are only playing for fun and not for thought or strategy...why did you click in and spend any time reading this article in the first place?
              Luck favors the skilled because it knows it will not be wasted.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Why?

                Originally posted by Sperricles
                I have one oxymoronic point to make to my critics...if you are only playing for fun and not for thought or strategy...why did you click in and spend any time reading this article in the first place?
                I guess you cought me of guard with this one
                to get away from the world, I use my computer.
                to reach out to the world, I use the Internet.
                To play the world, I use Civ III

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Albert


                  A good point. Wheres the fun in counting turns and look at the theoretic chanses for pillaging and a "two turn faster to the resources" settler.

                  Lets play the game. not make it a scientificly master degree.
                  Huh?! You read this thread why? If you're playing for fun without analysis....ah, Sperricles already said it. Seriously though, while I would admit this discussion definitely dives into the realm of strategy-forum type posts, it's a good notion to bring out; particularly since the 'unwashed masses' of Civ3 MP (read: Gamespy Chatroom crowd who plays on our ladder) don't bother to read anything outside of this forum.

                  Originally posted by Panag
                  hi ,

                  just one Q , to all of you as players "why on earth would you want the first worker to join the city anyway"

                  have a nice day
                  Panag, is it arrogance, stupidity, or poor reading comprehension which causes you to make inane, unconstructive posts on threads which make people curl their lips? Do you get bored ten seconds into the posts and not bother to read what people are saying and just hit 'post?' Do you have some sort of elitist hatred for anyone without at least "King" by their name or something? In theory, we should encourage new and different theories/thoughts. End of flame. Have a nice day.


                  Originally posted by Sperricles
                  I have noticed that by joining the worker to the city on the first turn, Aztecs can often generate 5 shields per turn from the start. This translates to a jaguar being produced every single turn, even right from the start. (assuming accelerated production, which is bread and butter to MP games). Pumping out units like that in the earliest turns of the game can devastate unprepared neighbors and even prepared neighbors (with a spearman or 2 warriors) that live anywhere close, (this is especially appropriate for the tiny/small MP environment as well)

                  *This* I think is one situation where the strategy you propose might work, especially if there's several good production bonuses in your city's starting radius. You do need to make sure that you pop a settler out at some point though, because if you don't overwhelm your foe immediately, you can find youself getting overwhelmed, 3 or 4 cities to 1. (I've seen Aztec players do this in their wild frenzied determination to smear their foes - simply leave Jag production on and never look back.)
                  Friedrich Psitalon
                  Admin, Civ4Players Ladder
                  Consultant, Firaxis Games

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon


                    Huh?! You read this thread why? If you're playing for fun without analysis....ah, Sperricles already said it. Seriously though, while I would admit this discussion definitely dives into the realm of strategy-forum type posts, it's a good notion to bring out; particularly since the 'unwashed masses' of Civ3 MP (read: Gamespy Chatroom crowd who plays on our ladder) don't bother to read anything outside of this forum.



                    Panag, is it arrogance, stupidity, or poor reading comprehension which causes you to make inane, unconstructive posts on threads which make people curl their lips? Do you get bored ten seconds into the posts and not bother to read what people are saying and just hit 'post?' Do you have some sort of elitist hatred for anyone without at least "King" by their name or something? In theory, we should encourage new and different theories/thoughts. End of flame. Have a nice day.





                    *This* I think is one situation where the strategy you propose might work, especially if there's several good production bonuses in your city's starting radius. You do need to make sure that you pop a settler out at some point though, because if you don't overwhelm your foe immediately, you can find youself getting overwhelmed, 3 or 4 cities to 1. (I've seen Aztec players do this in their wild frenzied determination to smear their foes - simply leave Jag production on and never look back.)
                    hi ,

                    man , its a sincere Q to hear other people's views and opinion's on it , .....

                    one that so far has brought forth intresting answers , .... all but the one from you , before you post such BS , learn a few things about courtesy and this site , ....

                    keep your flame to yourself the next time , thanks in advance

                    have a nice day
                    - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                    - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                    WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Why?

                      Originally posted by Sperricles
                      In answer to "why?".......first of all, because its there. Dominae, excellent response, I appreciate the input and your perspective from actual testing. This is a controversial practice to me, and indeed not one that I am fully convinced is always of value, but believe may have appropriate contexts. My testing is also starting to favor the results you have mentioned, with one other exception:

                      The MP Aztec Rush Scenario:

                      Without doubt, the Aztecs are more and more deadly the earlier and steadier they can launch those jaguars ( and no one else can launch 2 movement attackers from the beginning ). I have noticed that by joining the worker to the city on the first turn, Aztecs can often generate 5 shields per turn from the start. This translates to a jaguar being produced every single turn, even right from the start. (assuming accelerated production, which is bread and butter to MP games). Pumping out units like that in the earliest turns of the game can devastate unprepared neighbors and even prepared neighbors (with a spearman or 2 warriors) that live anywhere close, (this is especially appropriate for the tiny/small MP environment as well)

                      Back to the disrespectful question of "WHY?" that some critics have so quickly issued without giving the matter adequate thought: This may help to understand how much more you need to be ready than you think when "dueling 1 vs. 1" in MP with a player who chooses the Aztecs. Although I play for fun too, I have one oxymoronic point to make to my critics...if you are only playing for fun and not for thought or strategy...why did you click in and spend any time reading this article in the first place?
                      hi ,

                      , okay , that has to be tried out

                      very intresting

                      have a nice day
                      - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                      - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                      WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Sperricles, I was not aware that you played AP (which, obviously, changes strategy somewhat). Since I have no experience with AP, I'll comment no further. But let me say I can see how joining the first Worker is more powerful with AP on than off (always the better option? I dunno).


                        Dominae
                        And her eyes have all the seeming of a demon's that is dreaming...

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Good Point

                          Good Point Friedrich with the warning on forgetting to expand, and thanks for the support for advancing MP theory.

                          Panag, your replies are welcome, though like Friedrich, I would advocate including arguments to back your opions, and evidence to substantiate your arguments where possible. Let's make this a Constructive thread.
                          Luck favors the skilled because it knows it will not be wasted.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Fried-Psitalon
                            Panag, is it arrogance, stupidity, or poor reading comprehension which causes you to make inane, unconstructive posts on threads which make people curl their lips? Do you get bored ten seconds into the posts and not bother to read what people are saying and just hit 'post?' Do you have some sort of elitist hatred for anyone without at least "King" by their name or something? In theory, we should encourage new and different theories/thoughts. End of flame. Have a nice day.
                            One more personal attack like this against a fellow member of this site, and you will get restricted.

                            Discuss the issues... argue strategies... disagree... fine.
                            But if you want to make personal attacks against other members... find somewhere else to post.
                            Keep on Civin'
                            RIP rah, Tony Bogey & Baron O

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I use a combination of roads and tile improvements.

                              Actually, irrigation takes precedence over mining (provided the appropriate bonus resources are around). My first few cities do nothing but crank out settlers, so I need enough food production to keep up with the constant population drain.

                              Of course, depending on the terrain irrigation may be useless. *shrug*
                              "It's great to be known, but it's even better to be known as strange." --Takeshi Kaga

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                hi ,

                                a Question ; when do you build your second worker , ...

                                another Q ; how is your use of the first worker related to the civ you are and the traits the civ holds , ....

                                they are general Q's for everyone

                                have a nice day
                                - RES NON VERBA - DE OPRESSO LIBER - VERITAS ET LIBERTAS - O TOLMON NIKA - SINE PARI - VIGLIA PRETIUM LIBERTAS - SI VIS PACEM , PARA BELLUM -
                                - LEGIO PATRIA NOSTRA - one shot , one kill - freedom exists only in a book - everything you always wanted to know about special forces - everything you always wanted to know about Israel - what Dabur does in his free time , ... - in french - “Become an anti-Semitic teacher for 5 Euro only.”
                                WHY DOES ISRAEL NEED A SECURITY FENCE --- join in an exceptional demo game > join here forum is now open ! - the new civ Conquest screenshots > go see them UPDATED 07.11.2003 ISRAEL > crisis or challenge ?

                                Comment

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