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Answers on Radar Towers

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  • Answers on Radar Towers

    In a recent thread I posed a series of questions regarding radar towers and how they worked, looking for answers base on objective test results or Firaxis comment -- gameplay observation was welcome, but only as a point of interest, not as an answer to the questions. It quickly became clear that no real answers were forthcoming. So, with a bit of spare time this morning, I created and then ran several tests -- I didn't answer all my (and others') questions, but I answered enough to satisfy the nagging questions

    So, the Q's and A's:

    Question 1. Does the bonus apply to a unit attacking from "RT+2 tiles" into an adjacent tile that is "RT+3 tiles?"

    No. It appears that the game treats combat as occurring in the defender's tile exclusively. Since a unit attacking from RT+2 into RT+3 is engaging in combat in RT+3, the bonus does not apply.

    2. Does the bonus apply to bombardment attacks and defenses?

    Yes and No. A poor question. The bonus applies to attacks and defenses with respect to units (the bonus does apply to arty bombarding enemy units, for example), but does not seem to apply to non-units (see question 6 below).

    3. If yes to question 2, does the bonus apply to a bombardment from "RT+1" where the target is "RT+3?"

    No. Same principle as described in answer 1 seems to apply.

    4. Does the bonus apply to naval units?

    Yes.

    5. Does the bonus apply to air units? And if so, where does the air combat "take place" -- is it the city square in which a fighter on AS is stationed or is it the attacker's target tile or even elsewhere?

    No. Air battles seem to be unaffected by RTs (though my results were a bit quirky).

    6. Does the bonus apply to non-units (i.e., city improvement, city population and terrain enhancement defense values)?

    Cautious No WRT Terrain Improvements - Unknown otherwise. I tested only terrain improvements (not city improvements or population). And I abandoned my tests with a much smaller sample size than other tests -- earlier tests included 1000+ independent trials while the terrain bombardment tests included only approx 200 independent trials for both a control and a experimental group. The results seemed to indicate a clear "no" but the sample size was small enough that I won't bang my fist down with certainty.

    7. Do the benefits "stack" if you have more than one Radar Tower in an area? (e.g. 2 "in range" gives a 50% bonus)?

    No. Not tested, but the manual / civilopedia makes it clear they shouldn't, and, based on some of my tests, I think I would have noticed an anomaly that would have encouraged experimentation (since a test or two did have overlapping RTs).

    8. Do the benefits work outside of your cultural boundary or are they limited by culture?

    Yes. The benefits extend two tiles, regardless of cultural ownership of such tiles.

    9. What is the defensive value of a radar tower, as a terrain improvement? (obviously only applicable for defense vs. bombardment)

    Not laboriously tested. But strongly believed to be 16.

    10. What is the interaction of the answer to questions 6 and 9?

    N/A. Since answer 6 seems to confirm that terrain improvements (such as an RT) are not affected by RTs, the defense should remain at the assumed 16.

    Catt

  • #2
    Thank you.

    Comment


    • #3
      Nice thread, Catt. Now we know a bit more about these structures.
      I watched you fall. I think I pushed.

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      • #4
        Excellent work Catt.
        Seemingly Benign
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        • #5
          Nice work. Thanks.

          The implication seems to be that the best use of RT's is what the AI appears to do, that is build them next to cities so that units in the city benefit defensively when attacked and also benefit when attacking out of the city against besiegers. That also makes it more important to protect your own RT's if you build them and take out enemy RT's near cities you plan to attack.
          Never give an AI an even break.

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          • #6
            that post certainly helped me! thank you. i'm in big mess fighting the "mighty" russians and they have radar tower tec, but i don't. i was wondering if i should destroy the towers or leave them so that i can benifit from them after capturing the city. but i'm not all that mighty eighther and i think i will destroy them now.

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            • #7
              Actually, you should destroy them prior to your ground attacks against the Russians. The Russian's radar towers are of no use to you, since you cannot use them. Once you take a city, and the radar towers fall into your cultural border, the towers are automatically destroyed. Also, if you move a ground unit onto the same tile as the enemy tower, the tower is automatically destroyed. So destroy the towers by bombardment (artillery and/or air) so that the Russian units will not get the bonus against your ground troops.

              Oh, and yes, nice write-up Catt!
              ____________________________
              "One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
              "If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
              ____________________________

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              • #8
                Excellent Catt, thanks.

                Two points, learned while battling Persia in AU 203:

                1) Place RTs on the FAR side of where battle will occur.

                2) RTs are the last improvement to be destroyed via bombardment. If possible, do NOT place them along a coast.
                The greatest delight for man is to inflict defeat on his enemies, to drive them before him, to see those dear to them with their faces bathed in tears, to bestride their horses, to crush in his arms their daughters and wives.

                Duas uncias in puncta mortalis est.

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                • #9
                  Wow Catt, really good work! I have been dying to know the answer to number 8 for a long time, but was too lazy to test it.

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                  • #10
                    Excellent material, Catt.

                    Too bad it's left to us to figure out some of the basic game mechanics. Isn't that what a manual is supposed to be for?
                    "Stuie has the right idea" - Japher
                    "I trust Stuie and all involved." - SlowwHand
                    "Stuie is right...." - Guynemer

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                    • #11
                      Too bad you can't build radar towers IN cities. If they can work THROUGH a city, they should work FROM WITHIN a city.

                      Actually, that is what the civdef improvement should do. Hmmm. Can this be done via the editor (I'm at work now).
                      Got my new computer!!!!

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Brizey
                        Too bad you can't build radar towers IN cities. If they can work THROUGH a city, they should work FROM WITHIN a city.
                        That's what the civil defense improvement is for.

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                        • #13
                          thanks for the stats, catt!

                          now i didn't get one part: is the effect of the RT within the range 2 including the central tile (where RT is built) or excluded (which would mean a "diameter" of 5 tiles).

                          my question isn't so stupid, because outposts have a radius where the base tile is included (--> range 2 = see the own tile plus one extra tile in each direction)
                          - Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity
                          - Atheism is a nonprophet organization.

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                          • #14
                            The radar towers give visibility 2 tiles out (not including the center square). I assume (you know what they say about that) that the combat bonus extends to these same squares

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                            XXRXX
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                            • #15
                              Sorry I missed the question for awhile.

                              Warpstorm provided the answer, though it is probably worth some clarification since my own terminology seems less than clear now that I look back on it.

                              Using Warpstorm's schematic, but substituting "A" for the attacking unit and "D" for the defender, the radar tower works in this case:

                              xxxxx
                              xxxxx
                              xxRAD
                              xxxxx
                              xxxxx

                              But it does not provide the bonus in this case (which was my unclearly described concept of RT+2 into RT+3):

                              xxxxx
                              xxxxx
                              xxRxAD
                              xxxxx
                              xxxxx

                              The same applies to an artillery unit with range of 2 -- it did not work in this circumstance:

                              xxxxx
                              xxxxx
                              xxRAxD
                              xxxxx
                              xxxxx

                              I presumed, based on a belief that the "battle" takes place in the defender's tile (in turn based on all these tests) that it would work for the defender in the following case -- but I did not test it!

                              xxxxx
                              xxxxx
                              xxRxDA
                              xxxxx
                              xxxxx

                              Hope that clears it up!

                              Catt

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