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A few caveats before I begin:
1) I am unaware if this thread has been started elsewhere; I have not seen it and apologize if I am duplicating.
2) I am not a Civ "math cruncher" and rely on my experiences and intuition/judgement when I play. This has resulted in quite a fairly good record for me, so I feel safe making some claims.
3) I am not trying to place the "final word" on this issue, merely to stoke the flames of what could be a very useful debate.
I would propose to rank the new civs - and ONLY the new Civs - in order of their usefulness IN THE MULTIPLAYER FORMAT. Please feel free to tear into my rankings, but be gentle- I'm doing this more to teach AND to learn.
Greatest of the New Civs
Mighty Carthage.
I honestly think Carthage borders on too powerful. I've stopped playing them online because it makes most games too easy. Ignoring the ugly beard, Hannibal has a very powerful combination in his hands. His UU is surprisingly strong- archer and pikeman in one, for the cost of a Swordsman. Except you don't need warrior code or feudalism (or iron) to build them – just the bronze working that everyone grabs heading for Iron working anyhow. Wow. Whether or not you like Commercial as a civ trait (and I do, particularly because I can get some use of cities at longer distances than I could without Commercial) the power of Industrial for the early "road-rush" is not to be denied. When you march ten archers (or maybe Num Mercs? whee!) down your Industrialist road to meet your neighbor, you will understand why Carthage is king.
Bridesmaid of the New Civs -2nd place
The Celts.
I've always been leery in MP of a UU that requires a resource - I don't like getting resource screwed- but the Celts cure me of it. (If you haven't guessed yet, I consider the UU to be quite important in the MP arena, particularly with the trend of tiny/small/standard map play.) A swordsman that can retreat is handy, and you have to love those pants. I'm not overly impressed with Militaristic as a Civ trait (please debate THAT in another thread) but it doesn't hurt when your Gallics are elite. Religious allows a fast conversion to Monarchy (in MP, I feel Monarchy is the way to go over Republic, please debate THAT elsewhere too,hehe) and if you've started well, the combination can catapult you to a strong enough early advantage to win overall.
Groomsman of the New Civs -3rd place
The Arabs.
Honestly, I don't think any of the other 6 stand out in MP mode as much, but Arabia has a lot going for it. The cultural unit is a factor once you get that far, but many MP games are decided -or on their way- by the time Chivalry comes around. Sure, you might overthrow the top civ with your speedy unit, but don't count on it. Expansionist, long the underdog of 'normal' Civ 3, is *much* more powerful here. A long-held piece of military wisdom has been to find the enemy before he finds you, and in MP, that's twice as true. If you're smart, you circle around your target and hit him in a different direction with your army. That way, if you lose, he sends his retaliation the wrong way... the downside is that your scouts often meet feisty players with warriors. Oops. Religious is, once again, handy to keep things rolling in the MP environment.
At the halfway mark of the New Civs -4th place
The Ottoman Empire
All other factors being equal, Industriousness is a killer civ trait. The Ottoman UU is probably a non-factor; if the game isn't decided by the time cavalry are being fielded in a MP game...something odd is going on. On the flip side, scientific cultures can build that library a bit quicker, and if you can be sure of your safety, the Ottomans can rush the tech tree rather nicely. (That's a big IF.) This might be the pick for a “Builder” type player if they want to enter the MP realm (honestly, I think warmongers are going to hold sway until some excellent strategies are advanced) who uses their Industrious bonus to get lots of terrain to begin with.
Enraged at being in the second tier of the New Civs -5th place
The Mongolian Horde
Fifth and sixth place came down to the UU of the two civs in question- the Keshik and the Berserker. While I still believe that games are getting closer to completion by the time Chivalry is researched, the Keshik isn’t too fabulous even so. Having the defense of a spearman means they’ll get to use their retreating ability a decent amount, and being able to cruise over mountains isn’t that great, unless you have a mountain-rich map. If you’re in mountainous terrain, it’s a different story, but unless Keshiks can ignore mountain defensive bonuses when attacking (and they can’t) it’s still a convenience rather than a dealmaker. Militaristic isn’t bad, but there are two (three?) traits I’d rather have instead; the Expansionist is nice for maybe sneaking a few extra goody huts to get you closer to your Keshiks, though. All in all, a very average Civ in MP (and out of MP too, for that matter.)
Waving a big axe at me for putting them behind the Mongols -6th place
Scandinavia’s Vikings
When I first brought home the PTW expansion, I was in love with these guys. C’mon- big, burly guys waving huge axes with no regard to their own personal safety! 6 attack early in the feudal! MARINE LANDINGS in the feudal! What’s not to love? The realities of the MP environment – namely, the massive predomination of pangea or continent+60 percent water games – however, have relegated my visions of hordes of galleys disgorging mobs of Berserkers to the background. Without the use of their marine landing ability, berserkers suddenly don’t look so great. You either follow them around with pikemen to ensure their safety while they rest, or risk a charging knight (not at all unlikely given that you need invention researched to field Berserkers) mowing over your axe-waving friends. As for being militaristic expansionists, well, so are the Mongols. Unfortunately, the Viking UU doesn’t allow for taking advantage of finding opposing cultures and hitting them with speedy attacks like the Keshik….unless you find them on other continents…which would require having galleys to carry your scouts around anyhow…. Sorry, Hairy Breeches, but your Civ isn’t that impressive in MP.
You’d be a sad Civ too if Firaxis made your leader look like a man -7th place
Spain
Spain is probably the culture with the largest difference in usefulness between SP and MP games. In SP, I love their UU- dump four of these off in a mad dash through mountains and jungles to cut the roads sitting over the oil/iron/horses/whatever and you’re sitting pretty. In MP, however, I’ve only seen one game of the dozens I’ve played ever make it to the Industrial age- Conquistadores, for all their speed, come too late to make a difference in the MP environment. Commercial and Religious traits don’t really alter the equation much. Spain gets the second-to-last slot, but at least they’re solidly protected from being handed the bottom position.
At least no one should disagree with THIS civ ranking -8th place
Korea
Honestly, if I see someone pick the Koreans in a MP game, I’m tempted to ask them to concede on the spot. A painfully bad Civ in the MP environment, Korea simply has nothing to recommend it – though SP may be a different story, that’s not what we’re discussing here. With a cultural unit that rivals America’s and England’s for “Ugh, why bother,” Korea won’t make any early gains for you that way. As a commercial/scientific culture, they also don’t have much to leverage in that direction. I suppose a “Builder” player might enjoy Korea (but a builder would enjoy Carthage, too) however, in the rough-and-tumble world of MP, Korea is just too soft. Maybe some brilliant strategies can be devised to raise Korea up, but for now they’re on the bottom. True, you could put their UU in a city and defend it well (once you research that far), and use their civ traits to utilize all your cities… but how do you claim enough terrain to survive that long? Korea unquestionably sits dead last.
I hope someone finds this helpful, sparks a few ideas of their own, or in some way contributes to the knowledge pool of the PTW community. If the feedback to this is fairly positive, I’ll do this again ranking all the Civs in a MP format later today.
1) I am unaware if this thread has been started elsewhere; I have not seen it and apologize if I am duplicating.
2) I am not a Civ "math cruncher" and rely on my experiences and intuition/judgement when I play. This has resulted in quite a fairly good record for me, so I feel safe making some claims.
3) I am not trying to place the "final word" on this issue, merely to stoke the flames of what could be a very useful debate.
I would propose to rank the new civs - and ONLY the new Civs - in order of their usefulness IN THE MULTIPLAYER FORMAT. Please feel free to tear into my rankings, but be gentle- I'm doing this more to teach AND to learn.
Greatest of the New Civs
Mighty Carthage.
I honestly think Carthage borders on too powerful. I've stopped playing them online because it makes most games too easy. Ignoring the ugly beard, Hannibal has a very powerful combination in his hands. His UU is surprisingly strong- archer and pikeman in one, for the cost of a Swordsman. Except you don't need warrior code or feudalism (or iron) to build them – just the bronze working that everyone grabs heading for Iron working anyhow. Wow. Whether or not you like Commercial as a civ trait (and I do, particularly because I can get some use of cities at longer distances than I could without Commercial) the power of Industrial for the early "road-rush" is not to be denied. When you march ten archers (or maybe Num Mercs? whee!) down your Industrialist road to meet your neighbor, you will understand why Carthage is king.
Bridesmaid of the New Civs -2nd place
The Celts.
I've always been leery in MP of a UU that requires a resource - I don't like getting resource screwed- but the Celts cure me of it. (If you haven't guessed yet, I consider the UU to be quite important in the MP arena, particularly with the trend of tiny/small/standard map play.) A swordsman that can retreat is handy, and you have to love those pants. I'm not overly impressed with Militaristic as a Civ trait (please debate THAT in another thread) but it doesn't hurt when your Gallics are elite. Religious allows a fast conversion to Monarchy (in MP, I feel Monarchy is the way to go over Republic, please debate THAT elsewhere too,hehe) and if you've started well, the combination can catapult you to a strong enough early advantage to win overall.
Groomsman of the New Civs -3rd place
The Arabs.
Honestly, I don't think any of the other 6 stand out in MP mode as much, but Arabia has a lot going for it. The cultural unit is a factor once you get that far, but many MP games are decided -or on their way- by the time Chivalry comes around. Sure, you might overthrow the top civ with your speedy unit, but don't count on it. Expansionist, long the underdog of 'normal' Civ 3, is *much* more powerful here. A long-held piece of military wisdom has been to find the enemy before he finds you, and in MP, that's twice as true. If you're smart, you circle around your target and hit him in a different direction with your army. That way, if you lose, he sends his retaliation the wrong way... the downside is that your scouts often meet feisty players with warriors. Oops. Religious is, once again, handy to keep things rolling in the MP environment.
At the halfway mark of the New Civs -4th place
The Ottoman Empire
All other factors being equal, Industriousness is a killer civ trait. The Ottoman UU is probably a non-factor; if the game isn't decided by the time cavalry are being fielded in a MP game...something odd is going on. On the flip side, scientific cultures can build that library a bit quicker, and if you can be sure of your safety, the Ottomans can rush the tech tree rather nicely. (That's a big IF.) This might be the pick for a “Builder” type player if they want to enter the MP realm (honestly, I think warmongers are going to hold sway until some excellent strategies are advanced) who uses their Industrious bonus to get lots of terrain to begin with.
Enraged at being in the second tier of the New Civs -5th place
The Mongolian Horde
Fifth and sixth place came down to the UU of the two civs in question- the Keshik and the Berserker. While I still believe that games are getting closer to completion by the time Chivalry is researched, the Keshik isn’t too fabulous even so. Having the defense of a spearman means they’ll get to use their retreating ability a decent amount, and being able to cruise over mountains isn’t that great, unless you have a mountain-rich map. If you’re in mountainous terrain, it’s a different story, but unless Keshiks can ignore mountain defensive bonuses when attacking (and they can’t) it’s still a convenience rather than a dealmaker. Militaristic isn’t bad, but there are two (three?) traits I’d rather have instead; the Expansionist is nice for maybe sneaking a few extra goody huts to get you closer to your Keshiks, though. All in all, a very average Civ in MP (and out of MP too, for that matter.)
Waving a big axe at me for putting them behind the Mongols -6th place
Scandinavia’s Vikings
When I first brought home the PTW expansion, I was in love with these guys. C’mon- big, burly guys waving huge axes with no regard to their own personal safety! 6 attack early in the feudal! MARINE LANDINGS in the feudal! What’s not to love? The realities of the MP environment – namely, the massive predomination of pangea or continent+60 percent water games – however, have relegated my visions of hordes of galleys disgorging mobs of Berserkers to the background. Without the use of their marine landing ability, berserkers suddenly don’t look so great. You either follow them around with pikemen to ensure their safety while they rest, or risk a charging knight (not at all unlikely given that you need invention researched to field Berserkers) mowing over your axe-waving friends. As for being militaristic expansionists, well, so are the Mongols. Unfortunately, the Viking UU doesn’t allow for taking advantage of finding opposing cultures and hitting them with speedy attacks like the Keshik….unless you find them on other continents…which would require having galleys to carry your scouts around anyhow…. Sorry, Hairy Breeches, but your Civ isn’t that impressive in MP.
You’d be a sad Civ too if Firaxis made your leader look like a man -7th place
Spain
Spain is probably the culture with the largest difference in usefulness between SP and MP games. In SP, I love their UU- dump four of these off in a mad dash through mountains and jungles to cut the roads sitting over the oil/iron/horses/whatever and you’re sitting pretty. In MP, however, I’ve only seen one game of the dozens I’ve played ever make it to the Industrial age- Conquistadores, for all their speed, come too late to make a difference in the MP environment. Commercial and Religious traits don’t really alter the equation much. Spain gets the second-to-last slot, but at least they’re solidly protected from being handed the bottom position.
At least no one should disagree with THIS civ ranking -8th place
Korea
Honestly, if I see someone pick the Koreans in a MP game, I’m tempted to ask them to concede on the spot. A painfully bad Civ in the MP environment, Korea simply has nothing to recommend it – though SP may be a different story, that’s not what we’re discussing here. With a cultural unit that rivals America’s and England’s for “Ugh, why bother,” Korea won’t make any early gains for you that way. As a commercial/scientific culture, they also don’t have much to leverage in that direction. I suppose a “Builder” player might enjoy Korea (but a builder would enjoy Carthage, too) however, in the rough-and-tumble world of MP, Korea is just too soft. Maybe some brilliant strategies can be devised to raise Korea up, but for now they’re on the bottom. True, you could put their UU in a city and defend it well (once you research that far), and use their civ traits to utilize all your cities… but how do you claim enough terrain to survive that long? Korea unquestionably sits dead last.
I hope someone finds this helpful, sparks a few ideas of their own, or in some way contributes to the knowledge pool of the PTW community. If the feedback to this is fairly positive, I’ll do this again ranking all the Civs in a MP format later today.
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