HUGE diplomacy bug

[l.galant]

Here is a HUGE BUG I have noticed with PTW 1.04f (patch 1.14f still not work for me ) in single-player.

In the diplomacy screen, I asked "What do you want for Printing Press ?".
They wanted a 450 gold lump sum.
I wanted to make a counter-proposal and started by adding a WINE resource on the table.
And then my advisor said "They would never accept such a deal" !!!

So, the situation is:
THE AI ACCEPT A DEAL FOR 450 GOLD, BUR REFUSE IT FOR 450 GOLD + 1 RESSOURCE

More generally, the AI sometimes refuses some deals that are better than other deals he accepts.

PS: I am from Belgium, I apologize for my mistakes in English.

[Raion]

Ah, I think that's the way it plays.

I like to think of it as, the AI wants this, and only this!

It is like questioning the human player, why it would want to give more?

Maybe reputation or something for the AI Civilization.

[Raion]

It may be also trading with someone else, so it can not use the resource. Only the first resource of the same type will keep a Civilization happy. It does not use more than 1 of the resource -- like wine. If you have 4 wines, only the first wine will make your Civilization happy, the others would have to be traded to an AI Civilization that does not have wine.

So if the AI Civ has already one of the wines, yours would be no good to them, and must be an insult to them.

[l.galant]

Thank you for your quick response Raion, but the AI had no WINE !!!
In fact, if he had WINE, it would be impossible for me to propose WINE (grayed) to him.

The same BUG also occured with AI refusing an IRON (that he hadn't) in addition to the things he wanted.

[Zero-Tau]

Have you broken a deal involving gpt og resources before? If so, the AI civs will never accept you paying resources or gpt, under any circumstances.

[l.galant]

Originally posted by Zero-Tau
Have you broken a deal involving gpt og resources before? If so, the AI civs will never accept you paying resources or gpt, under any circumstances.

I don't think so.

In the game I am playing, the AI often prefer a deal to another that is better, but always when a ressource is added to the "best" offer.

I have declared war to the germans (via diplomacy screen) because they refused to give me something I asked. I was having a deal with them (a FUR for a WINE) when war was declared. Is that a reason for such a strange reaction from all the AIs ???

[Zero-Tau]

Originally posted by l.galant
I have declared war to the germans (via diplomacy screen) because they refused to give me something I asked. I was having a deal with them (a FUR for a WINE) when war was declared. Is that a reason for such a strange reaction from all the AIs ???

Yes, if less than 20 turns had passed since you made the deal, then that could very well be the reason. The AI no longer trusts that you will keep your deals for the agreed 20 turns.

[l.galant]

Originally posted by Zero-Tau


Yes, if less than 20 turns had passed since you made the deal, then that could very well be the reason. The AI no longer trusts that you will keep your deals for the agreed 20 turns.

I have tested.

There is now more than 30 turns that war with the Germans is finished.
A war initiated against me by the Zulus (because I refused to gave them IRON for free) is also finished and I have a peace treaty with them for more than 20 turns.

But, India still propose to sell "Republic" for 490 gold + World map, but refuse the deal if I add to this HORSE, WINE, SPICE and IVORY !!!

It seems that resources have a negative impact on the value of a deal for the AI, except in deal "a resource for another one".

[Ozborn]

This is definitely a HUGE diplomacy bug. It does appear to be due to breaking previous agreements, but regardless the AI should never complains when you promise to give them more. Admittedly the AI could believe you are going to break the deal, and they would rather try to get the resource from somebody else a few turns later but this isn't what is going on. I've seen this bug countless times and I don't think any effort has been made to fix it. Maybe now that multiplayer actually works they might get to it?

[l.galant]

Originally posted by Ozborn
This is definitely a HUGE diplomacy bug.
...
I've seen this bug countless times and I don't think any effort has been made to fix it. Maybe now that multiplayer actually works they might get to it?

Have you seen this bug only in PTW or also in Civ3 ?

I have stopped my game, because this bug prevent me from playing my strategy : control and sell the resources, which I was trying for the first time.
(In fact I wasn't in a good situation, even without the bug . I was trying the Vikings at Emperor level, 7 random AI civs, restless barbarians, standard map, everything else random and I had not a good start).

[Zero-Tau]

Originally posted by l.galant
There is now more than 30 turns that war with the Germans is finished.
A war initiated against me by the Zulus (because I refused to gave them IRON for free) is also finished and I have a peace treaty with them for more than 20 turns.

I think you misunderstood me. The time that has passed since the end of your wars is absolutely irrelevant. What is relevant is the number of turns from you sign the fur-wine deal with the Germans, till you declare war on them. If this is less than 20, then you are considered a deal breaker.

But I do agree that it's silly to refuse a deal after it's gotten better.

[l.galant]

Originally posted by Zero-Tau
I think you misunderstood me. The time that has passed since the end of your wars is absolutely irrelevant. What is relevant is the number of turns from you sign the fur-wine deal with the Germans, till you declare war on them. If this is less than 20, then you are considered a deal breaker.

Yes, I misunderstood you.

So you mean that :
IF (you have a commercial deal with someone) AND (you declare war against him)
THEN (all the AI civs will always refuse resources and "gold per turn" from you, except against resources of their own).

I didn't realize that while playing civ3 (not PTW), but I am not used to declare war.

[Zero-Tau]

Originally posted by l.galant

So you mean that :
IF (you have a commercial deal with someone) AND (you declare war against him)
THEN (all the AI civs will always refuse resources and "gold per turn" from you, except against resources of their own).

Yes.
I'm not sure about the "always" part, though. And remember: this only happens if:
1: the deal requires you to deliver something every turn (resource or gold) and
2: the deal is cancelled before 20 turns has passed. After 20 turns, you can cancel the deal without any reputation hit. (Declaring war may affect your reputation, but not specifically related to "per turn" deals.)

Oh, and my information is from Civ3 without PtW, but I haven't heard anything about a change of this.

[l.galant]

Thank you for your responses Zero-Tau.

I think there is a bug, but it seems to be not so huge (it's silly to refuse a deal after it's gotten better as you said).

So, a "control and sell resources" strategy is more difficult to apply than I thought.
You have to control resources before the AIs (which is difficult at levels above regent), or to avoid commercial deals -that requires you to deliver something every turn- when you are not sure to manage to control a wanted ressource without a war.

But, let's see things from the good point of view: you can turn this into an "avoid war" strategy.
If you manage to maintain such a deal -but one that requires THE AI to deliver something every turn to you- than the AI will probably not declare war to you
So, it can be better to control a few types of luxury-ressources than to control many ones. This will allow you to have many deals with AI-luxuries and they will not go in war against you to avoid breaking the deals. But you must have something to propose for the deals, so you must control as many as possible luxuries of only a few types.
(But maybe am I mad )

[De Gaulle]

Galant,

As mentionned by Zero-Tau this is not a bug but a feature of the diplomacy system. And I like it, even if it makes me suffer some times.

But you can try to work your way around it. Basically, while the AI will refuse most (any?) deal where it gives you something NOW for a payment PER TURN, you will be able to do per turn/per turn deals or sell him something now (tech/map) and get paid per turn (luxury/ressource/gold).

Usually you can still get what you want most of the time. The only problem I can see is that the AI will demand that you pay cash when it sells you a tech.