Why guerrila?

[planetfall]

Originally posted by Colonel Kraken
This is what I've done in my own personal mod:

Warrior-->Swordsman-->Man-at-Arms (Medieval Infantry)-->Minuteman (Colonial Musketman graphic)-->Freedom Fighters (Guerrilla)-->National Guards (new APC graphic).

This upgrade path is the "poor man's" (at least from Minuteman on) attack/defense units when they don't have the resources for the better units or they need to build quick cheap units (especially in those far away cities).


It works splendidly.

Just a thought. It's pretty cool.

Interesting. I don't know how to create custom graphics or add new units yet.

What are your S-A.D.M. values for:

Freedom Fighter?

Nat'l Guards?

== PF

[Nick727]

I say make them interchangeable with workers. In any city you have a barracks you could upg your workers to guerillas for say 50-70 gold each then when you didnt need the guerillas anymore you could change them back to workers for 20-30 gold. I wouldnt mess with movement or attack any. N the ideas about making em good in jungles well thats a good idea but that late in the game there aint much rainforrest left in the game so to speak.

Other idea is make it so that guerillas can do work that workers do but at only 1/4th the speed. This way they would be more useful but no too useful.

As for making them no maintnace cost I dont like that idea as it seems to make me think of doing something crazy like making endless hords of the little guys I can just see someone making 100s of them n crashing the game.

[ChaotikVisions]

Thats actually an interesting idea, though i'm not sure if you could make them downgradeable to workers again. Maybe having it with some of this fancy abilitys, but make it cost 1 pop point. Since it is essentially citizens up in arms it would make sense. But i'd prefer maybe an 8/6/1,all terrain as roads,invisible or hidden nationality instead of invisible. This would be better then upgrading and forking over cash(civs without rubber probably don't have alot anyway), and it would help to balance the unit more. Could decrease its cost to 80 in light of pop cost also perhaps? In my current game they're an 8/6/1,all terrain as roads. Its not up to modern age yet so I haven't seen the AI use them, but i'm sure they will since rubber will be scarce.

In reguards to them being that strong though i've taken unit values from others mods and marines are 10/6/1, paratroopers 8/8/1, Infantry still at 6/10/1. Gives everything a more balance feel and still provides some use for units after Tanks.

[CerberusIV]

I think the guerilla unit is it stands has a place in the game, it just has the wrong name. Really it represents militia or paramilitaries for civs that don't have the resources to build proper military units (think of a bunch of half trained locals running around with AK47's) and makes sense in the upgrade path.

Proper guerillas are a different issue. I decided to try and tackle several issues at once. I am trying to create a duplicate of the guerilla with the same stats but invisible and hidden nationality and only available to expansionist civs as well as the current unit available to everyone.

The idea is that this gives a late game benefit to the expansionist trait and allows those civs (who are mostly pretty aggressive) to harass the human player. I expect other AI civs to catch these modded guerillas as they move normal units around a lot. For human players marines and paratroopers are now 8.8.1 and see invisible so they can be used for counter insurgency operations. Hopefully this will make them more useful.

[Stuie]

I've found making Guerillas 6.6.2 all terrain as grass is adequate. I don't like the idea of making them invisible/unflagged... seems way too unbalancing. And rather than lower their attack/defense, I bumped up the attack values of infantry, paratroopers and marines by +2 each for my mod. Seems to be working well (for both me and the AI).

[Colonel Kraken]

Originally posted by planetfall


Interesting. I don't know how to create custom graphics or add new units yet.

Go to the Unit Graphics forum of the Civfanatics website. There's a wealth of information on adding unit graphics to your game --not to mention there are hundreds of new user-made graphics to choose from.

What are your S-A.D.M. values for:

Freedom Fighter?

Nat'l Guards?

== PF

Well, I would tell you, but since I've change the stats on almost every one of my units, it wouldn't make sense in the context of the original game. Basically, the Nat'l Guard unit is a cheaper/weaker version of the Mech Inf. The Freedom Fighter has been roughly kept in its relative position in stats.

I REALLY wish Firaxis had kept the Civ2 thing of Partisans popping out of a city that was taken over. Why they didn't include that awesome feature is absolutely beyond me.

[Nick727]

My idea was what I thought would be best for Civ3. Frankly I feel Civ3 is set up in such a way that in cannot have guerilla units and realisticly represent them in game.

If it where up to me guerillas would work like espenoge missions. You would pick a civ that u want to cause some hurt or slow down. You would choose to use guerilla forces to do this. The guerillas them selves would be like barbs you hired armd with assorted weapons so ADM would varry based on how much gold you forked over to give them weapons. The guerillas would be unable to cap citys for you but could steal money n trash improvments if they moved into a city. You also would not be able to directly control them insted you would select a 15-20 hex size area that they would operate in, and I have to go take care of some stuff so Ill finnish later. I just hope everyone got the idea of what I would make of them if it was up to me.

[SuperSlinky]

I think the whole swordsman upgrade path was just thrown together with leftover parts that never made it into the original game. What's with the medieval infantry? 4/2/1? Why bother? that is only one attack better than a swordsman and no better than the Persian Immortals. Then you go to the guerilla, which is another over-priced and weak unit.

I don't see why swordsmen don't eventually become musketmen, with or without medieval infantry. Probably because swordsmen are offensive and musketmen are defensive, but that is no reason to ignore the obvious upgrade path. I thought musketmen had a curiously low attack value anyway, so I raised it to 4 gave them the offense flag, and made medieval infantry upgrade to them.

I think the guerrilla unit was probably designed as the Civ3 equivalent to Civ2's partisans, but the game designers decided to leave it out. Anyway I think it is strange that a regular military unit like medieval infantry would upgrade to a paramilitary unit like a guerilla. That's why I used the guerilla graphic for something else: a special forces unit. I gave it 10/10/1, all as road, amphibious (Seals), and air drop (Green Berets). The cost is a hefty 150 sheilds so that the player nor the AI can go crazy with them. I toyed with the idea of making them invisible or hidden nationality, but I figured that would probably blast the game play to smithereens as the AI either went nuts building them or couldn't deal with them.

But then I raised the prices by large amounts on most of the better armor, naval, and air units. Why would anyone buy a Marine when you can get a tank for the same investment? Tanks now cost 160 shields in my game and Modern Armor is 260 shields. If you look at the stats, that is merely proportional to their strength. It also adds realism. Armor is expensive and most armies are heavy on the infantry with proportionally less armor and air power. Besides, your shield production in cities late in the game is far more than when you were making knights and cavalry. Even at those costs, you will still be able to make too many of them.

[problem_child]

I toyed with the idea of making them invisible or hidden nationality, but I figured that would probably blast the game play to smithereens as the AI either went nuts building them or couldn't deal with them.

I've edited Civ3 scenarios to include Mercenaries, they have hidden flags, as powerful as paratroopers, (same graphic too) and pre-req /Flight. The AI seems to use them alright, even 'cleverly', so I don't think hidden ationality would be a problem with your guerrillas.

Having sed that- I disagree with reping special forces, Espionage covers that lot, GBerets could be considered a sub-set of a marine or infantry unit, not a unit in themselves, I think of the infantry unit as being a Division. Repping a Division of special-forces is... Googleplex. Why not just make Guerrillas a little more powerful- and a lot cheaper, and upgrade to infantry, pre-req Replacable Parts, so you can't build em if you have rubber.

I say this because ALL must be like ME, join the hegemon of MEism! Do things My Way!!!

[statusperfect]

Originally posted by problem_child I say this because ALL must be like ME, join the hegemon of MEism! Do things My Way!!!

Thet's the best thing with civ 3. Everyone can play the game THEIR way.

[planetfall]

Should it be Guerrilla or Guerilla or Guerrila?

Got tired of typing the "same word" three differnt ways. Which is the correct spelling?

Topic title: "guerrila" is misspelled, the 'l' character needs to be repeated.

Webster & American Heritage Dictionaries:

Guerrilla-- standard spelling
"any member of a small defensive force of irregular soldiers, usually volunteers, making surprise raise, esp., behind lines of invading enemy army"--Webster

"member of an irregular military force that uses hasassing tactics against an enemy army"--Amer Heritage

Hum, defensive force making offensive raids.
Offense flag? Defense flag? Both? Chew on that awhile.

Guerilla-- alternative spelling.

== PF

[Nick727]

Musketmen shouldnt have good attack value. I mean in midevil times for the most part Muskets where at best semi effective weapons. I would not use them except for defensive roles n I wouldnt use them on open ground. They would be best kept behind walled citys n in fortresses. The problem with Muskets was the slow reload times and the fact they where unaccurate at best. Lets not forget if the weapon got damp you where screwd. I myself have fired muzzle loaders that use black powder. These would comapre to those used in the Civil War. Let me tell you in go back another 300-400 years from that time and you are talking some very uneffective hand cannon weapons that shouldnt even be considered anything close to guns. The biggest edge the weapon had was the noise factor which could demoralize hostile forces.

What it all boils down to is if knights attacked a force of Musketmen on open ground or even if the musketmen where in hills fact is the knights would roll over them. The Musketmen would MAYBE have time to get 2 shots off once the knights where withen effective range before they rode over the top of em.

[CerberusIV]

I am not looking to start a historical argument but musketmen came about for two reasons. Firstly they were a lot quicker to train than the years it took to use the longbow effectively and secondly they were effective.

Battle of Pavia 1525. After that every serious military power in europe switched to arquebus/musket as the primary infantry weapon where they could.

After consideration I am not inclined to change the guerilla in the game much at all, only make them cheaper as I think a replacement unit should be 150% to 200% of the shield cost of the unit it replaces.

[Raion]

Partisans really didn't do much in Civ II. They usually got killed before doing anything, so I just do not see why they are needed, right now.

This is not Civ II, but talking about it may be!

[Nakar Gabab]

Here's an un-PC thought: Give Guerillas hidden nationality and perhaps the 2-move, all-as-roads (but no ADM changes or invisible or what have you), and extend the line to the Modern Age with a "Terrorist" unit. Similar function, higher offense rating? If only ground units could precision-bomb somehow, you could make targeted strikes on enemy cities (with the requisite chance of failure or capture). It's sort of like espionage, but sort of... not.