Why guerrila?

[planetfall]

Partial update

My bix file was blown away and is only partially rebuild, but that's another story.

How to set movement
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
1. increase movement to 2
2. do not set "all tiles as roads" in lower left attribute box.
3. Select no movement penalty in top middle box for:
-- mountains
-- jungles
-- hills

Unit does then move 2 tiles without any terrain limitations. Much more realistic than the 3 moves if count all tiles as roads.


Invisible & stealth
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Here ran out of time for testing. But with both invisible and stealth selected moving unit with AI city boundaries still results in challenge "your troops are harrassing our citizens". Can't recall if this is the same action if move a sub inside a city border. I thought it would not be challenged but it is so long since I did that, I am not sure on the AI normal reaction.

Hope to complete rebuilding bix file and complete testing during tonights game.

Yet to test:
1. do AI military seek out invisible units or ignore them?
2. do subs entering a city boundary elicit a border violation challenge by AI?
3. Is there any difference if just invisible is selected and not along with stealth.

== PF

[Jaybe]

3. Select no movement penalty in top middle box for:
-- mountains
-- jungles
-- hills

(& Forests)

2. do subs entering a city boundary elicit a border violation challenge by AI?

Subs will be challenged if they are spotted (i.e., by one of their subs or cruisers). I enjoy using subs/nuc subs exploring others' shorelines, and have not experienced subs being challenged in any other circumstances.

[SpencerH]

Stealth is only for aircraft. Once you move a "land submarine' into the territory of another civ it will eventually be detected (once a unit bumps into it). Once that happens the units owner will be identified if hidden nationality is not checked.

[player1]

Originally posted by Jaybe
(& Forests)

European Guerilla from WW2 comes to my mind.

[joncnunn]

Under standard rules, I don't see the point of building any Guerrilas. Just upgrade your obsolete stone age / early middle age surviving units to them and use as cannon fooder.

I'd improve them by:

1. All terraign as roads. They are supposed to be able to outrun most units.

2. Invisiible. They are supposed to be able to hide out very well. (But perhaps give the underused Marines ability to detect invisible units.)

3. Hidden Nationality. Start ambusing each other's workers even at peace.

But stay with the base 1 movement point. With all terriagn as roads, they can already move 2 squares and pillage. With a base 2 movement + all as roads, they would have a 5 square pillage range.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Under standard rules, I don't see the point of building any Guerrilas. Just upgrade your obsolete stone age / early middle age surviving units to them and use as cannon fooder.

I'd improve them by:

1. All terraign as roads. They are supposed to be able to outrun most units.

2. Invisiible. They are supposed to be able to hide out very well. (But perhaps give the underused Marines ability to detect invisible units.)

3. Hidden Nationality. Start ambusing each other's workers even at peace.

But stay with the base 1 movement point. With all terriagn as roads, they can already move 2 squares and pillage. With a base 2 movement + all as roads, they would have a 5 square pillage range.

Invisible sounds like a good preference change. Hidden nationality seems like it would also work. All terrain as roads sounds look powerful. I would think it would turn guerillas into human cavalry. No way can I imagine a guerilla as mobile as cavalry.

Best I would think is movement of 3: move, hit/pillage, run away. Be sure to turn off terrain movement penalties for: forest/jungle/mt/hills. When you add invisible and hidden nationality, they will be quite useful. Oh, be sure to make some units able to see these invisible guerillas or you could be up for some strange battles.

If you play an game with this prefence, let us all know:
1- how you like the edited guerilla, and
2- how the AI used the edited guerilla.

Thanks

== PF

[planetfall]

Re: Partial update

Originally posted by planetfall
My bix file was blown away and is only partially rebuild, but that's another story.

Yet to test:
Do AI military seek out invisible units or ignore them?

AI treats as normal units. If add hidden flag then AI will conduct search and destroy missions.

Is there any difference if just invisible is selected and not along with stealth.

== PF

Not that I can find. Although some thought stealth would have an effect on land units, this flag seems to be ignored for land units.


BTW-- 2 movement really zips on own roads. That's 6 tiles. Thus sneak next to AI unit and wait. Attack next turn and then run 3 tiles away. Darn powerful.

== PF

[statusperfect]

Guerilla warfare i about surprise raids, minimizing casualties and retreating when you meet solid defense. Guerillas should use the defense bonus from the square they are on for attacking. A unit attacking from mountains/jungle etc. would be strong. Just like in real life.

They should have "always retreat" too!

[FNBrown]

Originally posted by Chuckles
I think the only point to gorillas is if you don't have rubber. The game is over if you're ever without a rubber. At least with gorillas you have a chance to get some rubbers and maybe survive.

This post rates about an 87 on the unintentional comedy scale...

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/simmons/021107.html

[vmxa1]

I have not found the gorillas yet are they part of the future tech? anyway I am too old to be concerned with rubbers.

[sabrewolf]

another easter egg?

[Zero]

Originally posted by vmxa1
I have not found the gorillas yet are they part of the future tech? anyway I am too old to be concerned with rubbers.

you gotta always wear your rubbers... it doesnt matter how old you are, protect yourself!

[planetfall]

Thank you for all your replies.

Here is the preference set I will try with next game:


Guerrila:
add: invisible
add: detect invisible
add: no terrain penalty- mts
add: no terrain penalty-- hills
add: no terrain penalty-- forest
add: no terrain penalty-- jungle
Increase movement from 1 to 2


Infantry:
add: detect invisible

Mechs:
add: detect invisible.




Should be interesting. Tanks and MA won't be able to see guerrila's.
They will need mechs, inf, guerrilas in area to locate guerrilas.

If anything interesting results from preference changes, I will let you know.

== PF

[planetfall]

CAUTION: Guerrilla with discussion consensus of: 6.6.2, invisible, all terrain as grass UNBALANCES game.

FYI. Playing a game with the concensus values has severe problems:

1. armies of guerrilla's built by AI
2. guerrilla's used as super marines
3. guerrilla's defeat tanks 1/5 or 1/4 times.
4. few infantry are built.


Guerrilla's close unit review
The units close to the guerrilla in characteristics are:

Musketman    60s  2.4.1

Knight       70s  4.3.2

Cav          80s  6.3.3

Rifleman     80s  4.6.1

Guerrilla    90s  6.6.2; invisible, all terrain as grass

Infantry     90s  6.10.1

Paratrooper 100s  6.8.1

Marine      100s  8.6.1

rebalanced Guerrilla unit values
If adding 1) invisible, and 2) movement of two to emulate real guerrilla's the firaxis A.D of 6.6.x is too strong.

What do you think of 70s 5.2.2 ?
COST
70 s -- Guerrillas are cheap units buildable by any civ. Don't need horses as Knight/Cav. Don't need group defense training of Rifleman and Infantry.

OFFENSE/Attack
5 -- Slightly more powerful than knight as later age military unit. Not as powerful as infantry or cavalry. Also less powerful than a paratrooper.

DEFENSE
2 -- Defense is not in pitched battles but in running away. Movement of 2 gives run away ability after attack. Unlike the Knight or cav units, guerrilla does not have retreat ability so there is a real risk in building too many of these units.

MOVEMENT
2 -- all terrain as grass. Would like to restrict movement to 1 tile for landings from coast, but don't know how we could preference that.


Comments??

== PF

[Colonel Kraken]

This is what I've done in my own personal mod:

Warrior-->Swordsman-->Man-at-Arms (Medieval Infantry)-->Minuteman (Colonial Musketman graphic)-->Freedom Fighters (Guerrilla)-->National Guards (new APC graphic).

This upgrade path is the "poor man's" (at least from Minuteman on) attack/defense units when they don't have the resources for the better units or they need to build quick cheap units (especially in those far away cities).

Regular units path: Spearman-->Phalanx-->Pikeman-->Musket Infantry (Napoleonic Inf graphic)-->Rifleman-->Infantry-->Mech Inf

It works splendidly.

Just a thought. It's pretty cool.