Why guerrila?

[Zurai]

Originally posted by planetfall
One game I made both subs hidden nationality. Wow, instead of battleships I had 40-50 AI subs attacking everything that floated. Would be interesting to see what mischief the AI could make with hidden nationlity for land units.

== PF

I have 2 hidden nationality units in my mod. The AI really, REALLY likes them, even though they're twice as expensive as their equivalent non-HN unit. For the record, a 3.2.1 Mercenary at Ironworking for 60 shields, and a 3.2.2 Mounted Mercenary at Monarchy for 100 shields. The AI is very aggressive with them.

[aahz_capone]

all tiles as road and one movement would actualyy make more sence then 2 move, yeah... hmmm...

[Jaybe]

2 movement points, all terrian as grassland would give guerillas retreat capability and the desired mobility.

If I ever get a game to go that far (SP) without crashing ....

[Zero]

Originally posted by player1
Just one thing to say:

If you are planning to give them treat all tiles as roads ability DO NOT, and I repeat DO NOT give them 2 movement point.

Otherwise you'll get a very powerfull Cavalry unit (6 tile movements in enemy territory)

Treat all tiles as roads ability with movement of 1 is on the other hand OK.

I made my custom civ have civ specific paratroopers (same sprite). They had two move AND terrain as road. They were overwhelmingly dominant in the game so I gave them a civ specific warrior with 2 move and terrain as road (used jaguar sprite). They were still dominant.

Allow guerrilas move 2 all as roads. This gives them at least some reason for someone to actually build them (i.e. a unit which can pillage and run.)

Exactly. If they can do that, it's too powerful. 2 mov and road ads up to movement ability of radius of 6 despite terrain. Thats 12X12 squares of terrain for you to choose from if your in the middle of enemy empire!

I think they should be able to sit in "ambush", then if something accidentally comes next to them, they can attack and disengage. They trade punches with the enemy for a percentage of their status (say 2 for normal, 3 for veteran, and 4 for elite) and then disengage regardless of whether they are winning or losing. Guerilla warfare is not necessarily about killing an enemy.

You indirectly have an ambush feature already. Most people longed for ambush option that would allow unit to be on fortify like mode that allows you to attack a unit incoming into that square (so the attack defense role is reversed) in another thread i posted. But really, if you trap a unit to end its turn right next to you and you attack and withdraw thats ambush/guerilla as you are describing. In addition to you saying guerilla is not necessarily about killing an enemy. Yes you're right, but in real life armies dont lose block of health either. Killing only one unit in that square w/ 10 other units sounds like a good enough guerilla action for me.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Chuckles
I think the only point to gorillas is if you don't have rubber. The game is over if you're ever without a rubber. At least with gorillas you have a chance to get some rubbers and maybe survive.

not true guerilla def of 6 is same as riflemen's defense of 6 and riflemen is alot cheaper.

EDIT: sorry, you meant chance of attacking... misread it. anyway attack of 6 won't do you much anyway when the age of normal defense is in their two digits. Yeah I understand that it is still better than beign stuck at four, but it doesn't make a drastic improvement in unbalance of rubber owner VS non rubber owners.

[player1]

Originally posted by Calc II


not true guerilla def of 6 is same as riflemen's defense of 6 and riflemen is alot cheaper.

EDIT: sorry, you meant chance of attacking... misread it. anyway attack of 6 won't do you much anyway when the age of normal defense is in their two digits. Yeah I understand that it is still better than beign stuck at four, but it doesn't make a drastic improvement in unbalance of rubber owner VS non rubber owners.

4 vs 6 makes a lot of difference if you used Arty to soften up defenses.

P.S.
Alot cheaper?
80 vs 90 shields.

[Zero]

Originally posted by player1


4 vs 6 makes a lot of difference if you used Arty to soften up defenses.

P.S.
Alot cheaper?
80 vs 90 shields.

thought it was 70... well I guess for 10 extra shield +2 attack is pretty good since it seems that good rule is to determine unit value is +1 stat per +10 shield.

anyway, yes it makes a difference. But assuming you are on same level w/ rival, the best defense is 10 and best offense is at 6, this is the era where mostly defense seem to play into role. by making that worse if you dont have rubber your defense falls to 6 (w/ or w/o guerilla) anyway.

As for offense, calvary is the same stat as guery's offense, so only difference guery makes is that the same startegy can be applied even w/o horse and gunpowder.

EDIT: okay ack, to make things short, There is great unbalance in rubber owner VS have nots. Even assuming you have calvary. But now for people who dont have rubber AND saltpeter, they will be in same equal disadvantageous height as non rubber owning saltpeter owners. Thats what I meant.

[Switch]

I think that the Guerrila should just be standard AD, but 2 M and all terrain as grassland. Otherwise I think it would just be overpowered.

[SpencerH]

Movement of 2 so they could disengage would be better than 'all terrain as roads' except that they would then be able to move 6 along roads.

[sabrewolf]

i think 6,6,2, all terrain as road is waaay too powerful.

after all, 6 is still the best offense (except UUs). and with 6 tiles-moves you can come from the mountains (1. move), attack (2-4. move), go back in the mountains (5. move) and still fortify.

if you want 2 movements and all as road, i'd suggest having just 5 offense.

otherwise just leave it the same IMHO

[planetfall]

Invisible vs Stealth

Ok, my thoughts so far:

1. 2 movments on roads is too much
2. don't know how to edit 2 movement, all terrain as grass
3. standard guerrila still not useful.

Current thinking:
1. add INVISIBLE to guerrila
2. keep movement at 1
3. make inf/mech/guerrila SEE INVISIBLE but not any armor. Picture a land based sub unit. Need DS or AEGIS or sub to see subs since BS and carriers can't.
4. for first play with edits change guerrila to 5.6.1. {Yeah I know, weaker. Doesn't sound like me, se la vive.}

What the !I#@ does "Stealth" do to land or sea units? With air it effects chances of interception, but guess is nothing in land or sea. If could add stealth to sea, might be interesting to see what a mod of a Stealth SSN would be like.

Any more feedback? Will be next week before start next PTW game with edited guerrilas.

== PF

[problem_child]

I haven't played PTW yet, (can't wait tho) but I think the Guerilla unit would be best as exactly half as powerful as infantry, and always start as conscript, and invisible.

Perhaps they should only be allowed through drafting? nah... maybe not.

Question about invisability tho, would this mean your Guerillas can pop across the border and tear up roads or mines, without that nation then declaring war? Afterall if Civ3 had undersea assets like mines, and a sub were to pillage them, the AI would not then respond would it? So with the guarillas, they'd only be discovered/engaged/war-declared if they ran directly into a military unit of that nation.

[SpencerH]

We tried invisible land units in mods quite a while back. The problem was that they dont tend to be invisible to the AI. We suspected that the since the AI continously moves its units around it kept bumping into our invisible units (and then immediately attacked them). There was a rumour that Firaxis was trying to make the guerrillas invisible, but maybe they couldnt work out the problems either.

[planetfall]

Originally posted by SpencerH
We tried invisible land units in mods quite a while back. The problem was that they dont tend to be invisible to the AI. We suspected that the since the AI continously moves its units around it kept bumping into our invisible units (and then immediately attacked them). There was a rumour that Firaxis was trying to make the guerrillas invisible, but maybe they couldnt work out the problems either.

Sounds like for land units, INVISIBLE and HIDDENNATIONALITY are linked. So, until we have a working option, the choice is either invisible and hidden or no preference change.

I will start a test game later to see what the actual current play characterisitics are.

-- PF

[Zurai]

Originally posted by planetfall


Sounds like for land units, INVISIBLE and HIDDENNATIONALITY are linked. So, until we have a working option, the choice is either invisible and hidden or no preference change.

I will start a test game later to see what the actual current play characterisitics are.

-- PF

No they aren't. "Invisible" is different from "Stealth" in the unit flags in the editor. Invisible is what the submarines have; Stealth is what the Stealth planes have. "Hidden Nationality" is something else completely.

Oh, and to change their movement to all terrain to grasslands, look up the Keshik - it has mountains treated as grasslands. Try to figure out where they made that change and you should be able to change all the other terrain types to 1 movement for Guerrilas. I'd be more specific but, as I mentioned earlier, I still don't have PTW.