Give PTW a chance!

[Alexander's Horse]

Re: Accepting What?

Originally posted by be0wulfe
I've played the Civ & SMAC series since the early days of Civ 1 and this iteration Civ3 AND it's PTW expansion, has been the single worst gaming experience of my gaming days.

[zorbop]

if any of you have ever played ctp or ctp2 you would be much more apreciative. i've only have civ3 crash once.... i had never gotten past the late renisance in ctp because it crashed so often.

the reason for patches is that you can't release a perfect game if you wan't to keep up in the industry... at least firaxes makes patches.
how it currently is the patches are in respose to all of our playtesting. because there are so many possibilities of things that can happen in a civ3 game, it would be nearly impossible for firaxes to play test all of it alone.
i really don't see what is wrong with ptw(although the unit sets they promissed would be nice, and gallic sowrdsman becoming obselete to medieval infantry is skrewy...), then again i haven't tried multiplayer yet.

[Christmann]

What I don't get:

I got civ3 as soon as it was released. When I found out there wasn't any scenarios or ways to make them I didn't play it anymore. And now PTW hasn't got scenarios either, as I've read in this forum.
I just don't get it! In 1996 when civ2 came out there were scenarios, and I only played the game because of them. But now, we've waited more than a year since civ3 came out and we STILL haven't got them?? WTF!

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by UberKruX
firaxis effed up and they know it. the price drops $5 within 2 weeks of release, there are several reviews giving it a failing grade (< 65%), etc.

i'd honestly like a firaxian to come out and admit that they messed up, and i'd honestly (as someone planning to go into the industry) want to know why it happened. if it was infogrammes pushing them (as people speculate) i'd like to know. if it was just shotty code tested on standardized machines in a closed invironment, i'd like to know.

You deserve an answer Uber, but I fear you won't get one from a Firaxian. Do you think it would be wise for them to publically slag the people who write the cheques? Do you slag your 'boss' in public?

Keep in mind that Infog owns the franchise. Firaxis was hired to code. I would imagine it went something like this...

Firaxis submits each version to Infog. They'd have to or the Infog testers listed in the manual would have nothing to test. The game hits release candidate versions...

The bean counters at Infog grab the first or second version to be a candidate and send it to have cds pressed. The cds and distribution take a little bit of time. That small window gives Firaxis a chance to whip up whatever improvements they can in a short space of time. They produce 3 more versions in short order et voila... you have a patch out on release day.

I'm not sure, but I think what I have laid out is an entirely plausible scenario. It may have happened too.

[Sonic]

Minmaster, I am civ newbie (my first civ was civ3) and I gotta say I like PtW very much.

Christmann, wait a bit, I am creating a scenario now . It will be a scenario of current day earth with 24 countries (of course many names/stats will be changed) and barbarians using guerillas (representing various freedom fighters and terrorist organizations, like IRA or ETA). I don't however have any 3D editor so leader heads will remain unchanged. Currently I've already prepared the rules and put Italian, British and Spanish cities on the map. So, it will still take quite a long time to finish it.

[Wise Ass]

Originally posted by notyoueither


You deserve an answer Uber, but I fear you won't get one from a Firaxian. Do you think it would be wise for them to publically slag the people who write the cheques? Do you slag your 'boss' in public?

Keep in mind that Infog owns the franchise. Firaxis was hired to code. I would imagine it went something like this...

Firaxis submits each version to Infog. They'd have to or the Infog testers listed in the manual would have nothing to test. The game hits release candidate versions...

The bean counters at Infog grab the first or second version to be a candidate and send it to have cds pressed. The cds and distribution take a little bit of time. That small window gives Firaxis a chance to whip up whatever improvements they can in a short space of time. They produce 3 more versions in short order et voila... you have a patch out on release day.

I'm not sure, but I think what I have laid out is an entirely plausible scenario. It may have happened too.

The Scenario is very possible it is the way the industry works

If you look over the last chat logs I asked Jeff if Infogrames gave them a date to to deliver by and He said more or less (something along those lines). It was the last question.

To add to that Infogrames reserves the right to sue Firaxis for any expected revenues and any fronted royalties if they miss just one benchmark date.

[asleepathewheel]

Re: Accepting What?

Originally posted by be0wulfe
I've played the Civ & SMAC series since the early days of Civ 1 and this iteration Civ3 AND it's PTW expansion, has been the single worst gaming experience of my gaming days

Wow. You must be living a charmed gaming life, cause it seems for every good replayable game I get, there are several duds that I never touch again.

Outpost-sigh
C&C:tiberian Sun: waste
X-Com 2:TftD: worse graphics than the previous game.
and there are far more than these, and thats not even counting console games. (shudders as remembers first purchased NES game-Jaws-quickly returned for Zelda)

Originally posted by be0wulfe
complete a SINGLE game because they all eventually bug out and crash during a turn run - and none of the patches have helped.

You've never had an SP game not crash? Sounds like some internal issues. I don't think I've seen even the loudest detractor claim that SP has never functioned. Its crashed for me maybe 3 times.

About tech support: I have heard the converse, at least early on, that they actually were prompt in replies

of course that was early in the games life, long before the problems of PTW...

If you post your problems in the Civhelp section(unless you already have), perhaps someone here could help you.

[KoalaBear33]

Originally posted by Kingof the Apes
If I want multiplay, I'll turn on Warcraft.

What if one wants a multiplayer TBS?

KoalaBear33

[Akka]

What if one wants a multiplayer TBS?

Warcraft, with a 14,4 Kb modem

[Goober]

I think I understand...

Originally posted by notyoueither
Keep in mind that Infog owns the franchise. Firaxis was hired to code. I would imagine it went something like this...

Firaxis submits each version to Infog. They'd have to or the Infog testers listed in the manual would have nothing to test. The game hits release candidate versions...

The bean counters at Infog grab the first or second version to be a candidate and send it to have cds pressed. The cds and distribution take a little bit of time. That small window gives Firaxis a chance to whip up whatever improvements they can in a short space of time. They produce 3 more versions in short order et voila... you have a patch out on release day.

I'm not sure, but I think what I have laid out is an entirely plausible scenario. It may have happened too.

Makes sense to me. And I can even understand the motivations on both sides. Of course Firaxis wants to do the best job possible, and they'd be pissed that Infogrames held them to their promised release date. But Infogrames had to pay money to advertisers, set up retailers, schedule deliveries before the holidays, and it's all based on timing.

For you homeowners out there, have you ever dealt with contractors? What if you were redoing your kitchen and your contractor told you in October that he wants to do the planned work "right" but that will take you into the winter and he'll have to charge you more money to do the work. You'd like to wait that long, but you'd like to have heat, so you need it finished -- so he does a half-assed job, and says it's your fault for rushing him.

Who do you blame? The contractor (developer) for not taking into account complications when he gave you an estimate? The weather (industry), for putting these constraints on the work? The homeowner (publisher), for not being flexible or rich enough to accomodate the contractor's project needs? Well, these things happen, and everyone's to blame.

--Goober

[godinex]

I hate the Patchs...

[WarpStorm]

Re: I think I understand...

Originally posted by Goober
For you homeowners out there, have you ever dealt with contractors? What if you were redoing your kitchen and your contractor told you in October that he wants to do the planned work "right" but that will take you into the winter and he'll have to charge you more money to do the work. You'd like to wait that long, but you'd like to have heat, so you need it finished -- so he does a half-assed job, and says it's your fault for rushing him.

This is about the sanest analogy on the situation I've read yet.

[be0wulfe]

Re: Re: Accepting What?

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
Wow. You must be living a charmed gaming life, cause it seems for every good replayable game I get, there are several duds that I never touch again.

Not really; I'm just really choosy in what I play; FWIW, the games on your list were stinkers agreed - the reviews & demos were good enough to point that out so I missed those bullets. But when something like the venerable Civ series has Civ3 & PTW happen to it ... well, that's one less GOOD game one can play

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
You've never had an SP game not crash? Sounds like some internal issues.

Think not ... like my original post said, everything else on my rig runs like a charm and what crashes I do have, are found on some bug list and fixed by a patch.

Originally posted by asleepathewheel
About tech support: I have heard the converse, at least early on, that they actually were prompt in replies

It was never that good; I'ld post the reply I got from IG if it wasn't so disgustingly assinine. They list a series of a dozen steps, running from uninstall\reinstall game and - get this - cleaning the CD, with a one liner closing: "Do this and your game will run."

What in God's Green Earth are those jokers smoking!? Clean the CD? Clean the freaking CD? How on earth is cleaning the CD going to help a game NOT crash when it's processing the bloody turn!? Add to that, I've sent *VERY* descriptive descriptions (until recently) about what I was doing, and what I suspect the crash may be due to and I've always attached and included a link to the save games.

IG is to blamed for some assinine Tech Support and Firaxis should be ashamed that they've successfully dragged the name of the CIV series in the mud.

I remember the time when a detailed technical description and communications with a developer got me a patched EXE on a 5 1/4 disk - yes children, this was way back right after the big bang. And by golly, it worked. Nowadays, I certainly don't expect the same level of service, but I DO expect competent service.

And lest anyone lecture about software design and development, pipe it up elsewhere, I've been doing it for 12 years commercially and in IS and in both cases, at the end of the day there is one and only one mantra that matters: "The customer signs your paycheck. Make the customer happy."

[Cyclotron]

Crashes seem to be pretty hard to pin down, as far as the cause... I've never had Civ3 crash on me once (I don't have PTW). For me, it seems like a stretch to say that it is the game's fault, because I have had no problems... but I won't doubt you. Some games just seem to work or not work on different machines, I don't know why.

I'm not sure in what way Firaxis has "dragged the name of the CIV series in the mud." After all, I thought CTP did that. From what I hear, PTW leaves much to be desired, but that's not so much the Civ series, only an XP. If anything, they've dragged their own name through the mud.

As for me, I'll give PTW a chance... Or rather, I'll give Firaxis a chance to patch it before I buy it. I was dissapointed with the bugs in Civ3, and I don't trust Firaxis enough to buy PTW outright, but Civ3 IMO is a fantastic game and by 1.29 I had no problems.

[notyoueither]

It's Infog that does the dragging. They own it afterall. It's theirs to do whatever stupid thing occurs to them.

And BTW, three months from now I doubt that these conversations will carry the same tone and mostly will be forgotten. Just my hunch.