Killing Clone Civs - Discussion

[aahz_capone]

These are good ideas tiberius, but a problem with maritime is that it kills the wonders which give +1 movement on sea. if a marotime got those wonders, well a terime could go faster then a destroyer: very wierd.

and as for nationalistic, I like the idea, but it shouldn't have better trade/diplomacy with other countries but slightly worse unless those countries are nationalistic too. And it should be called something else, because nationalism is a science that can be discovered. How about calling it patriotism or something?

[Tiberius]

Patriotism? Not bad.

Why should they have worse results from diplomacy? I mean, such civs are usually more 'stubborn' when it comes to protecting their national interest.

[aahz_capone]

Well, Tiberius, the way I figure it is that ultra-nationalistic birds of a feather flock together, like Mussolini's Italy, Hitler's Germany and Franco's Spain. However other more 'moderate' nations shun them finding they're selfrightousness arrogent and demeaning. The effect is seen even today: when modern nations like France or USA or Israel get all uppity with their own superiority, other countries aren't as welcoming to their retoric.

[Zero-Tau]

Originally posted by WarpStorm
An even better solution would be to add 2 traits. Then you could get 28 unique combos.

Yep, but then you can't pick any combination you want. Right now you can.

And I just got another idea. Instead of adding a new ability, one might allow a civ to have the same ability twice. This would give all the usual effects (once; double industrious will not make your workers four times as fast) plus something extra. I was thinking something like this:

Double commercial: All citizens produce 1 gold, regardless of their function. Resistors aren't counted. Tax collectors produce a total of 2 gold.

Double industrious: All squares, including water, that produce no shields now produce 1. This may be further enhanced by government bonuses. (These civs can't build Offshore Platforms, because they already get production from water squares.)

Double scientific: All optional techs cost half their normal price to research. (If you buy them from another civ you'll have to pay full price.)

Double expansionist: Workers and settlers have movement 2. Scouts have movement 2, treat all terrain as roads. Explorers have movement 3, treat all terrain as roads.

Double religious: Enemy cities with your citizens have double chance to flip to you. Own cities with your citizens (so not including just captured cities) have half chance to flip to another civ.

Double militaristic: All units may attack multiple times in the same turn.

Well, what do you all think?

[Tiberius]

Zero-Tau

Why couldn't you pick any combination you want to?

For the double-thing: Your idea could make sense in the game's terms, but what would be the real life equivalence? Which country on Earth is double-industrious? It would be also very, very difficult to obtain a good gamepaly balance with those civs in.


aahz_capone

I can accept that. Either way, the nationalistic/patriotic (in another thread somebody suggested charismatic ), could be a good trait.

[Mr. President]

Y'know what the real problem is? Too many civilizations.

[aahz_capone]

Nooooo!!!!!!

One can never have too many civs! Ther must be millions!



And one day, I will RULE THEM ALL!!!!


MUH HU HA HA HA HA HAHAAAHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!

[Zero-Tau]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Why couldn't you pick any combination you want to?

Well, there's 28 combinations and only 24 civs. But if someone could come up with 4 more civs, adding 2 traits would be great.

For the double-thing: Your idea could make sense in the game's terms, but what would be the real life equivalence? Which country on Earth is double-industrious? It would be also very, very difficult to obtain a good gamepaly balance with those civs in.

There isn't really any real life equivalent. I was just thinking game terms. Besides, I'd prefer for new traits to be added. As for the gameplay, yes, balance would be very difficult. I thought a bit about this myself, and my original suggestion will almost certainly lead to overpowered civs.

aahz_capone

I can accept that. Either way, the nationalistic/patriotic (in another thread somebody suggested charismatic ), could be a good trait.

I second that! But there's a bit of trouble with capone's suggestion: "Better deals" will mean nothing in MP, and "reduced war weariness" will only be useful under some governments. The two other abilities are nice, though. Maybe add "Immune to propaganda", as with religious.

[Destroyer]

I think you are missing the point.

I think it is nice to play with your own nationality.

Anyway, I think all of your ideas could apply to the English, and so we would end up being a super-civ.

[aahz_capone]

Ok, destroyer has a point, playing your own nationality (and for that matter acting like it) is way fun.

However, even though all civs share some bit of patriotism, or at one point were industrial or militant, some civs just more than other for longer periods of time, which is why engalnd isn't a super civ. I mean, if it was, it would have gotten to alpha centauri by now...

[Destroyer]

Hey, we are too busy pushing through the US foreign policy and appologising to all our old colonies for bringing medicine, education, irrigation, roads, laws (or was that the Romans) and great big guns,as well as bringing the rest of the world a common language, science, literature, music, television, football, the BBC, baddies in films and decent packets of crisps.

[Vlad Antlerkov]

I like the idea of a civ having the same trait doubled up. This would result in 21 combinations.

Alternatively, keep two traits-- but have one be a primary trait, the other a secondary trait. (Example: Mil/Sci would be different from Sci/Mil.) Whether the primary trait would be the current version powered up (like Zero-Tau's double-traits) or the secondary trait be weakened from the current version, I don't know. Anyway, you'd get 30 combinations, more than enough for 24 civs.

Or varying degrees of traits (including negative versions-- i.e. negative Industrious would slow down worker rate, negative Commercial would increase corruption, etc.).

/me falls asleep on keyboard

[aahz_capone]

Antlerkov has a good idea, positive and negative traits and primary/secondary traits could be put together in a system of points, like +2 for economy and industry, -1 for commercial etc. per civ.... Then that could be fixed to the favourite form of gov for that civ (like communism for Russia, democracy for ammerica) to give extra benifits and...

no wait...

OMG!! That's SMAC!!

AAAAAAAAARGH!!!!!

[Zero-Tau]

I think that when designing this system we should try to keep things as simple as possible. The best solution, IMO, would be to simply add one or two new traits. The second best would be Vlad's suggestion of having a primary/secondary attribute, or adding the possibility of double-traits. Anything beyond that and things start to get a bit too complicated.

[Destroyer]

Originally posted by Zero-Tau
I think that when designing this system we should try to keep things as simple as possible.

Noooooooooooo! No more dumbing down. I want a million cominations that I will never fully understand. Keeps it fresh.

SMAC had it right though. With a bit of tweeking to make it relevant, it could have ben used in civ - just like the deplomacy ( oh Ill just stop now or Ill be here all day)