Killing Clone Civs - Discussion

[Inverse Icarus]

I'm in the apolyton chat right now talking to a few people, and TKG brought up the issue of "clone civs". Civs with the same attributes but different UUs. (Japan, Aztecs, and Celts are all going to be mil/reg IIRC).

The obvious solution (without coding new abilities, duh) would to give each civ 3 abilities.

so, who would you give what?

would you make any major changes (completely tear apart a civ's abilities?

[WarpStorm]

Won't work, this would only give 20 (overpowered, IMHO) combos. There would still be duplicates.

[aahz_capone]

Yup, Warp is right about that. The only real way to solve the problem is to make an entirely new variable, like suceptive (sp?) to goverment forms. Ofcourse then you'd have to make the gov types less simplified.

[Trifna]

Well, reality shows that there ARE some civilizations that are close to each others by their strenght. It doesn't stop them to be different civs, they just have common strenghts so it's not THAT bad.

[aahz_capone]

I don't actually mind the cloning TOO much, as I still have a blast with UU and historically speaking I dig thinking I'm a certain civ while playing. Only technically I see that with 4 traits there could be more combinations.

However, before those of you get too pissed off about cloning just think back to the days of civ 1 and 2 before traits existed and remeber the good times.

[Zero]

Originally posted by WarpStorm
Won't work, this would only give 20 (overpowered, IMHO) combos. There would still be duplicates.

yeah as opposed to 15 that we have right now... still better.
(1 - 6 numbers representing 6 types of trait)

1-2, 1-3, 1-4, 1-5,1-6
2-3, 2-4, 2-5, 2-6
3-4,3-5, 3-6
4-5, 4-6
5-6
= 15
Reason that the aztec and Japan share same trait is due to this reason. Even if mil/rel wasn't duped, some other trait would have been.

3 trait would provide 5 more than 2 trait:
123, 124, 125, 126
134, 135, 136
145, 146
156

234, 235, 236
245, 246
256

345, 346
356

456
= 20

I personally mod to have 3 trait per civ becaue I can go for commercial, industrious and Religious (and if I wanna go warmongering, put mil instead of ind) all at the same time. Making it 3 will alleviate duping problems bu won't solve it. When 4 trait is used, the number decreases back to 15.

1234, 1235, 1236
1245, 1246
1256
1345, 1346
1356
1456

2345, 2346
2356
2456

3456
=15

If you want my opinion on solution? add newtrait! adding one new trait will give you 6 more possibility with 2 trait combination, since you have 7 types of trait to mix and match now.

If adding new trait is not an option, UU should be drastically different (or placed in different era) so that playing style for cloned civ is as different as possible. For example, both civ with sci/ind trait could be toatally differently played by one nation having a iroquois like UU and other Hoplite UU.

[brianshapiro]

IF YOU'VE EVER MADE A NEW CIVILIZATION IN THE EDITOR YOU KNOW THERE ARE OTHER ATTRIBUTES/PROPERTIES THAT CAN BE SET FOR A CIVILIZATION BESIDES THE MAIN CIV TYPES; STRATEGIES, PRIORITIES, ETC

[Zero-Tau]

Originally posted by brianshapiro
IF YOU'VE EVER MADE A NEW CIVILIZATION IN THE EDITOR YOU KNOW THERE ARE OTHER ATTRIBUTES/PROPERTIES THAT CAN BE SET FOR A CIVILIZATION BESIDES THE MAIN CIV TYPES; STRATEGIES, PRIORITIES, ETC

Please, turn off Caps Lock. To answer your suggestion: Yes, but that makes no difference to a human with that civ.

[player1]

Please, turn off Caps Lock. To answer your suggestion: Yes, but that makes no difference to a human with that civ.

Of course it makes difference.
You have a different UU.

And UUs are very important stretegicly.

[Zero-Tau]

Originally posted by player1


Of course it makes difference.
You have a different UU.

And UUs are very important stretegicly.

I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about brianshapiro's suggestion of changing strategies and priorities in the editor. These make no difference to a human with the civ. The UU makes a great difference, of course, I know that.

Back to the original post: I think adding one more ability would be best. That'd give 21 combinations. The extra 3 would have to be clone civs, but you could give them slightly different starting techs - like with Aztecs and Japan right now.

I have no idea what the ability would be, though.

[Zero]

21? me and warpstorm said 20, and I specifically laid out the 20 combinations.. how did you get one extra combo?

[Zero-Tau]

Originally posted by Calc II
21? me and warpstorm said 20, and I specifically laid out the 20 combinations.. how did you get one extra combo?

Mil/Rel, Mil/Com, Mil/Ex, Mil/Ind, Mil/Sci (that's 5), Mil/New, Rel/Com, Rel/Ex, Rel/Ind, Rel/Sci (10), Rel/New, Com/Ex, Com/Ind, Com/Sci, Com/New (15), Ex/Ind, Ex/Sci, Ex/New, Ind/Sci, Ind/New (20), Sci/New.

That's 21.

[WarpStorm]

Yes, the number of combinations of 7 objects taken 2 at a time is 21. An even better solution would be to add 2 traits. Then you could get 28 unique combos.

[aahz_capone]

Like what kind of new traits would you have in mind then?

I can only think of agricultural (but that would maybe mess up the game's balance in the beginning).

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by aahz_capone
Like what kind of new traits would you have in mind then?

1. Agricultural
+1 food (in the city, after size x)
cheaper granary, aqueduct, hospital

2. Maritime
+1 movement on sea
cheaper harbors
(Some problems could occur on Pangaeea ... )

3. Nationalistic
better chances to succeed in espionage missions
more resistant to cultural assimilation (less chances for cities to defect/flip from you and more resistors if your cities are conquered)
less war weariness
better trade/diplomatic deals
(Example from the current civs: France; or otherwise: Hebrews, Serbs, Irish, etc)