The Great Wall.

[XOR]

Hmmmm... sorry on the mistake, Sun Tzu's art of war is not "obsolete", it's contents are not really outdated, not all chapters, but it certainly is incomplete, it does not account for todays methods that introduce several different threats.

I think his treatment for making encampments and so on is totally outdated, in it he doesnt really explain on what he bases his rules, he just says "do it like this" instead of "do it so that you get to secure advantages of x, y, z, in order of priority". His treatment about espionage also seems very incomplete, including that he mixes espionage with recon. His treatment about fire IS obsolete, I cant see how fire could be used in a way connected to what he explains unless a battle is carried out on a city or forest and you set on fire hundreds of acres of land. I could go on and on, but I just intended to comment on the Great Wall, not on Sun Tzus. :P

[Panag]

Re: Re: Re: The Great Wall.

Originally posted by Mr. Schwang


Yes, almost. Actually, if you take a poll, "Can you make 'whatever' you want from the editor?" I will bet that you will find that 90% at least of the people here at apolyton will say 'no'. The editor is far short of what many of us wanted.

Don't get me wrong though, I think the editors great, just not great enough.

hi ,

the editor is far from complete , but , if you will take a good look at it you shall find that there are a lot of things that you can use , ....

and 90% on this site has not even given it a decent look , .......

so there judgement is a bit "weak" , ......

have a nice day

[XOR]

Re: Re: Re: Re: The Great Wall.

Originally posted by panag


hi ,

the editor is far from complete , but , if you will take a good look at it you shall find that there are a lot of things that you can use , ....

and 90% on this site has not even given it a decent look , .......

so there judgement is a bit "weak" , ......

have a nice day

hi ,

how do I create farms on the editor?

how do I create advanced mines in the editor?

how do I make it so rairoads only change transportation and not the food and production?

how do I create airbases? (as tile improvement, like in Civ2)

how do I create trenches?

how do I make Paratroopers be able to airdrop from ANY city instead of needing airports?

how do I make bombers and paratrooper have a range of more than 8?

and how do I make the Great Wall prevent enemy mounted units from crossing trough land borders?

have a nice day

[Daedalus]

XOR - You are taking the text in The Art Of War far too literally. The Art Of War is considered required reading because while some of the terminology is dated, the ideas are timeless. Instead of just reading the text on the page, try to understand the ideas behind the text. I really wish I had my copy on me so I could be specific, but your dismissal of Chapter 12: Fire Attacks as out-dated is absurd. Forget the concept of 'fire' as a weapon but instead look at the focus of the chapter- using elements other than force in battle -

"The army must know the five changes of fire, to be able to calculate the appropriate days." Understand every possibilty that your tactic presents

"Those who use fire to assist in attacks are intelligent, those who use water to assist in attacks are powerful." The wise use indirect means to affect their enemy

"Water can be used to cut off the enemy, but cannot be used to plunder." Know the limitations of your tactics

etc.

Don't be thick! Read the book properly!

[XOR]

It's required reading or whatever, but for modern war, it's incomplete. I am not meaning to discuss the Art of War in this thread, just how some wonders dont make sense to their original purpose. Putting aisde our obviously discrepant opinions about Sun Tzu's book, many wonders dont make the least sense.

Pyramids: The things were kings tombs, not big granaries.

Great Wall: Prevented invasions from mounted armies. It wasnt a magic sphere reinforcing all citywalls of the region.

Leonardos Workshop: The man was a reasearcher/inventor. What he did was of scientific value but it really did not connect to how much it costed to upgrade military armment.

Universal Suffrage: Reduces War Wariness. Allowing women to vote reduces war wariness? Besides, women can vote in almost every country in the world, it's not like its a unique wonder or so to say.

[WarpStorm]

Does it really matter if they make total logical sense? Not in my opinion.

As far as Leonardo's Workshop goes, many of his drawings and researches for for military machines that wouldn't be built for many, many years (helicopter, parachutes, tanks to name just a few). If he had the support to manufacture these devices modern warfare would have come a lot earlier.

The true value of Universal Suffrage came in WW2 in the USA, when the women who now had full rights as citizens basically ran the country and the war effort in the absense of men.

These topics have been discussed to death previously. If you have a closed mind about them, nobody will be able to convince you no matter the strength of their arguments.

[XOR]

It's not unique to the US to start with...

[WarpStorm]

The US was one of the first of the industrial nations and it was a new thing that has not been adopted in most of the world yet.

[XOR]

What? The US was the first to allow women to vote. The rest came right after, but the rest did come and did allow women to vote. It is not unique, it was unique for less time than the US had monopoly over nuclear weapons.

[WarpStorm]

So? Does it matter? What matters is there's a wonder in the game that gives reduced war weariness to one player only. That's all that's important. What you call it doesn't really matter at all. I don't play for the histroical accuracy. I get way too much history, science, and warfare analysis in my job to worry about the accuracy of the game. I'm really only concerned if the game is fun. Wonders are fun because they give one team an advantage over the others.

[XOR]

Yes, and building big tombs gives you a granary in every city...

[WarpStorm]

These were discussed during Civ 1 and 2, also. None of this is new, XOR. You aren't the first to point out that the wonders don't make sense. It's not realistic. I admit it. None of the Wonder effects are. Big Deal. They are a fun game mechanic.

[XOR]

Originally posted by WarpStorm
These were discussed during Civ 1 and 2, also. None of this is new, XOR. You aren't the first to point out that the wonders don't make sense. It's not realistic. I admit it. None of the Wonder effects are. Big Deal. They are a fun game mechanic.

Which is not bad, but, could be better... if there was a way to edit that much...

[Keeper of Hell]

How precisely, in terms of the game, do you propose to make Sun Tzu's go obsolete? All the barracks in your civiliaztion suddenly disappear? Once a barracks is built, it doesn't fall down just because the wonder that begat it becomes obsolete. This is the reason the Pyramids can't become obsolete: the granaries would have to disappear.

[WarpStorm]

What exactly do you want to edit that you can't currently?