The Great Wall.

[XOR]

I know this is going to get no attention whatsoever but I just thought I'd share this thought with people here.

From what I have read, the Great Wall wasnt a protection for each and every city (like Civ2), it didnt come anywhere near to replacing city walls or have any relationship with them. The Great wall, as far as I know, was only intended to prevent invasions of mounted armies, men could find their way climbing trough it one way or another (like cutting nearby trees and piling them in front of the wall) but it was impossible to get horses from one side to the other. If any army crossed the wall, they would have to walk several miles of mountain on foot just to encounter a huge receiving in the nearest town/bridge/river (ancient chinese warfare was basicly over towns/bridges and rivers AFAIK).

The good thing would be to see it prevent mounted units crossing trough land borders. I know it wont happen, but as I said at the beguinning of the thread, I just tought I'd share this thoughts with you.

The wonders could use some helping, I think it makes far more sense when, for example, if Adam Smith's Co expires with Computers and Sun Tzu's with Rocketry. And the Manhatan Project being a small wonder (this one I didn't change tough).

[WarpStorm]

Why would Sun Tzu's end with Rocketry? The Art of War is still on the reading list for military officers and just as applicable now as it was then. Have you read it?

[WarpStorm]

BTW, the main way the hordes got through the great Wall was bribery.

[Traelin]

Originally posted by WarpStorm
Why would Sun Tzu's end with Rocketry? The Art of War is still on the reading list for military officers and just as applicable now as it was then. Have you read it?

Yeah Sun Tzu's should definitely not end with Rocketry (if at all IMHO). I admittedly haven't read it cover to cover, but you'd be surprised how many current military leaders still reference it.

[Traelin]

Re: The Great Wall.

Originally posted by XOR
The wonders could use some helping, I think it makes far more sense when, for example, if Adam Smith's Co expires with Computers and Sun Tzu's with Rocketry. And the Manhatan Project being a small wonder (this one I didn't change tough).

I agree with Manhattan being a SW, but why would Smith's expire with Computers? It seems more fitting to expire it with a new tech like Modern Economics or something.

[Panag]

Re: The Great Wall.

Originally posted by XOR
I know this is going to get no attention whatsoever but I just thought I'd share this thought with people here.

From what I have read, the Great Wall wasnt a protection for each and every city (like Civ2), it didnt come anywhere near to replacing city walls or have any relationship with them. The Great wall, as far as I know, was only intended to prevent invasions of mounted armies, men could find their way climbing trough it one way or another (like cutting nearby trees and piling them in front of the wall) but it was impossible to get horses from one side to the other. If any army crossed the wall, they would have to walk several miles of mountain on foot just to encounter a huge receiving in the nearest town/bridge/river (ancient chinese warfare was basicly over towns/bridges and rivers AFAIK).

The good thing would be to see it prevent mounted units crossing trough land borders. I know it wont happen, but as I said at the beguinning of the thread, I just tought I'd share this thoughts with you.

The wonders could use some helping, I think it makes far more sense when, for example, if Adam Smith's Co expires with Computers and Sun Tzu's with Rocketry. And the Manhatan Project being a small wonder (this one I didn't change tough).

hi ,

why dont you give the editor a good look , ....

you can make almost whatever you want with it , ...

have a nice day

[XOR]

Yes, I edited things already, you dont have to remember me.

I read Sun Tzu's Art of War in detail. Most of it deals with terrain information and the entire treatment considers only larger armies with slow mobility. Sun Tzu's axioms and laws, most of them, got obsolete since the German started with their blitzkrieg tactics, paradroping and special operations started taking place. Things like fire, terrain and weather no longer affect troops the way they did back them. Back then bad weather was a mess, today, it's an addition to camouflage. Back then an army division would be a large group of armed people that would encounter the enemy front to front, today, armies have an impressive mobility and deployability, you can no longer count on a front on one direction because the attack can as well come from behind, from above, or even from below.

[WarpStorm]

How about the chapter on espionage?

[Dida]

Just to point out something XOR, Sun Tsu says that we should use regular force to engage and use special force to win. Did he ever mentioned that we need to fight enemy front to front in order to win? By the way
, special force doesn't mean 'elite force'. People always make this mistake. It means Unpredictable tactic or special tactic. Indeed, the Art of War is all about tactic and no so much about the physical army.
Another thing, does weather really not matter in moderm warfare? What did German suffer such a defeat at Moscow and Stalingrad? Why do people in Bush administration want to delay possible attack on Iraq till the winter?

[Blue Moose]

I don't think Sun Tzu's should ever expire...it is perfect the way it is. It's about ground tactics and strategy, and barracks only affect your ground troops. Seems perfect to me.

Admittedly, if the combat system was more complex...perhaps Sun Tzu's could then be changed to be only about ground vs. ground troops....though it is hard to say. I mean, many of the concepts and thoughts are adaptable to modern warfare. So the barracks effect is slightly odd perhaps, but only slightly....probably the best Civ III can manage.

Hmm...perhaps all wonders should be small wonders though....but use a system similar to the tech researching system. Though instead of it being easier to build if one is already built, it takes more shields. Makes more sense to me that way, I have mixed feelings about the idea of "wonders."

-Moose

[JtheJackal]

Originally posted by Blue Moose
Hmm...perhaps all wonders should be small wonders though....but use a system similar to the tech researching system. Though instead of it being easier to build if one is already built, it takes more shields. Makes more sense to me that way, I have mixed feelings about the idea of "wonders."

-Moose

Thats the last thing all wonders should be! Having unique wonders adds alot of strategy to the game and can help a loseing civ gain a upper hand. Also making wonders not unique (like in Empire Earth) is an insult to the wonders themselves.

[XarXo]

But, what is a wonder? Probably with another luck Pyramids could stay as another strange thing in the world, when Angkor Wat may be a "wonder".

A wonder creation should be realted to the culture power of a civ, when more powerful is a normal improvement of that civ (example: a cathedral) became a wonder.

For enable this, could be avaible the possibility of build a normal cathedral or pay more for it (mor powerful), and, with a random event, it probably becames unique and is capable to be wonder.

[Blue Moose]

The Empire State building was once the largest building in the world....you could argue at the time that it *was* a wonder....the Stature of Liberty is argueably a wonder in America, but does this stop another freedom loving country to make their own large monument to it? No, it doesn't, but people will typically only take much notice if it has something that is more impressive than the previous version.

If the Romans had wanted too, they could have made something better than the Pyramids (bigger, etc)...but they just didn't have that as part of their culture (though they did make their huge Colosseum, which is probably wonder-class).

They're making the Internet a wonder....and that is a feat that can be duplicated easily...but for it to compete you'd need a faster, better system....and so forth....

The Hoover Dam...that's another thing that any civilization with the resources could reproduce.

There is plenty of reason to allow a civ to make a wonder with a similar affect to what has come before. I am not saying all those wonders should have the same names or look the same, and perhaps there should be some small differences between them. But it makes a lot of sense to allow multiple versions of the 'same' wonders. At least with most wonders. Some things, such as the U.N., can really only have one in effect at a time.

Anyhow, that is how I think on the issue.

[Panag]

Originally posted by XOR
Yes, I edited things already, you dont have to remember me.

I read Sun Tzu's Art of War in detail. Most of it deals with terrain information and the entire treatment considers only larger armies with slow mobility. Sun Tzu's axioms and laws, most of them, got obsolete since the German started with their blitzkrieg tactics, paradroping and special operations started taking place. Things like fire, terrain and weather no longer affect troops the way they did back them. Back then bad weather was a mess, today, it's an addition to camouflage. Back then an army division would be a large group of armed people that would encounter the enemy front to front, today, armies have an impressive mobility and deployability, you can no longer count on a front on one direction because the attack can as well come from behind, from above, or even from below.

hi ,

read it again , try to get a full edition , .....

paratroopers is one thing , but if you read it good enough you can find tactics that can be used by paratroopers and tactics that can be used to stop them , .....

in a front you can divide your fronts , .....this is what the meaning is , command and control , .....

you give in a way an answer to your own point , ....

if you know that the enemy can come from everywhere , what do you do then , ....

you get mobile , you learn to identify a thread , analise it , take action , .....

today a lot of armies still use his work , along other great works to make up manuals , ...

have a nice day

[Mr. Schwang]

Re: Re: The Great Wall.

Originally posted by panag


hi ,

why dont you give the editor a good look , ....

you can make almost whatever you want with it , ...

have a nice day

Yes, almost. Actually, if you take a poll, "Can you make 'whatever' you want from the editor?" I will bet that you will find that 90% at least of the people here at apolyton will say 'no'. The editor is far short of what many of us wanted.

Don't get me wrong though, I think the editors great, just not great enough.