Civilization specifics

[Jethro83]

Looks like there is a lot of modding to do when I get PTW.

"Carthaginians: Commercial/Industrius, UU is Numidian Infantry, spearman with increased attack/defense and no special resources"

The traits are OK. The UU seems a bit overpowered at the moment, not to mention inaccurate historically.

"Koreans: Commercial/Scientific, UU is Hwacha, cannon with increased bombard and requires less special resources"

The traits suit them. However, I was hoping the turtle boat would be their UU instead of the hwacha.

"Mongols: Militaristic/Expansionist, UU is Keshik, cheaper Knight that requires less special resources"

No problems here.

"Vikings: Militaristic/Expansionist, UU is Berserker, Longbowman with increased attack, defense, AND amphibious attack"

I was thinking the Vikings should be Commercial instead of Expansionist. As for the berserker, it seems a bit overpowered if they don't make it more expensive than a regular longbow (I'll be modding it to require Iron if it doesn't already).

"Spanish: Religious/Commercial, UU is Conquistador, weak, cheap, requires almost no special resources, treat all terrain as roads, and doesn't replace anything"

They were right about making Spain Religious. But as for Commercial, no way they were an economic powerhouse, as most of their vast weath was plundered from Central and South America. Militaristic or Expansionist would be a better trait for them than Commercial. As for the Conquistador, while there is some merit in choosing this as a UU, there probably won't be much use for it given the stats I've heard.

The Tercio would have been a more useful UU.

"Celts: Religious/Militaristic, UU is Gallic Swordsman, swordsman with faster movement"

No problems here.

"Arabs: Expansionist/Religious, UU is Ansar Warrior, replaces Knights, and are faster and cheaper"

Both traits suit the Arabs. I can't comment on the UU as this is the first I've heard of the Ansar Warrior. The only UU I could have come up with for the Arabs would have been the mameluke.

"Turks: Industrial/Scientific, UU is Siphai, a better attacking Cavalry"

Industrious/Scientific!? I don't know what traits would suit the Turks, but Scientific and Industrious do NOT suit them. As for the UU, again this is the first I've heard of the Siphai. I was thinking more along the lines of the Janissary being their UU.

[Darkworld Ark]

Rel/Com fits the Spanish, because Civ3's commerical trait doesn't nessicarily mean they are good with money, it means that they're able to hold on to large empires, which the Spanish did quite well.

As for the Vikings, expantionist doesn't quite fit them in my veiw, since they didn't have great land scouts or good relation with the natives. It would have been easier if Firaxis added the Maritime trait we asked for. I'm not quite sure about the Berserker though, the added 1 attack, 1 defense makes it a Midevial Infantry, so why not just make it a MI with anphibous attack?

[Antiochus VII]

I'm suprised the Carthaginians (i.e. Phoenecian) didn't get EXPANSIONIST rather than Industrious as they were some of the great explorers of the ancient world (commercial goes without saying).

The unique unit is strange too, though it represents THEIR (not the Numidian) African troops abilities around 250 B.C. Any Numidian unique unit should have been light cavalry.


I don't even want to get into the Turks traits

[Tiberius]

Off topic, for a quick answer:

Originally posted by Palaiologos
P.S If only to satisfy my curriosity, could you tell me where are you from Tiberius?

Timisoara - Romania; but my nationality is Hungarian. So I cover 2 out of the 3 nations you mentioned fighting against the turks. But I could find quickly some serbs, too. One of my work colleges, for example

On topic:
The traits that are OK in my opinion:
- Carthaginians, Koreans, Mongols, Celts

The others (IMO):
- Arabs could have been religious/commercial
- Spanish: Religious/Expansionistic. This is exactly what they were: religiously expansionistic; they tried to expand their religion in the whole world (and they succeded on one continent, right?)
- Vikings: I'm not an expert, but from what I've heard they could be commercial instead of expansionist or maybe instead of militaristic
- Turks: Hey Firaxis, are all the matching traits taken or what? Industrial/Scientific is ridiculous. I'd make them religious/expansionistic or religious/militaristic or something close to this.

[Palaiologos]

The Turkish UU is a Siphai.Not only i have never heard of it but i find it ridiculus to be a special cavalry.If the cavalry unit in civ3 represents the horsemen of 1650+ that means that Ottoman horse was better than the Prussian cavalry under Frederick the Great, French Dragoons and British Scots Grays.

The only cavalry i have heard of in Turkish history is the Spakhs(i am not sure if this how its written in English).And these were lightly armed as most units in the Imperial(Ottoman) Army.

As for the Carthaginian UU the choise of Numidian infantry is absurd.The Numidians were famous for their indeed excellent cavalry, not infantry, as i have written a few posts above.

If the UU represents their own African troops then why it is called Numidian?The Phoenicians of Carthage fought in hoplite style, phalanx formation.Their special corps was called by the Greeks "The Sacred Band" and were heavily armed and armoured.These white dressed elites however were decimated by Agathocles at the battle of Tunes(Tunis).

The black Numidians served in the army as mercenaries. The white Phoenicians rarely served as rank and file except as mentioned above.

[Palaiologos]

Thanks Tiberius for answering.I am Greek as you may have already guessed.


And as for the Turkish UU and traits i would like to hear the oppinion of a native Turk.

The Vikings were indeed known for their trading activities but only after they converted to christianity. They were raiders before that.


I checked the information on civfanatics myself and i found no reference on the new civ's leaders.Any hints?

[Duddha]

New information from Civfanatics.com

Keshik: 4/2/2
Conquistador: 5/3/3
Gallic Swordsman: 3/2/2
Sipahi: 7/3/3
Numidian Mercenary: 2/3/1
Ansar Warrior: 4/2/3
Medieval Infantry: 4/2/1
Guerilla: 6/6/1

[Tiberius]

The Turkish UU is a Siphai. Not only i have never heard of it but i find it ridiculus to be a special cavalry

I agree completely. I've never heard that the turks had some special cavarly unit, or generally were any good in mounted-combat
Why didn't they choose the so-obvious janissaries?

[Tiberius]

Damn! I've just realized that the turkish "siphai" is a misspell !!! It is not 'siphai' but "SPAHI", which were indeed famous ottoman soldiers (I didn't know they were mounted ).

I quote from britannica.com:

feudal cavalryman of the Ottoman Empire whose status resembled that of the medieval European knight. The spahi (from Persian for “cavalryman”) was holder of a fief (timar; Turkish: timar) granted directly by the Ottoman sultan and was entitled to all of the income from it in return for military service.

Now, the spahi are OK, but they were knigths, not cavalry! They fought for example in 1456 in the famous battle of Nandorfehervar (Belgrade) when Janos Hunyadi stopped the ottoman invasion of Europe (at least for a while), defeating Mehmet II, the conqueror of Constantinopole. So, this was in the 15th century, were there any cavalry units back then? Britannica.com says "feudal cavalry", now, that is not exactly the cavalry unit from civ3, is it?

Palaiologos, were you thinking of them when you said "The only cavalry i have heard of in Turkish history is the Spakhs"? Probably yes.

[Palaiologos]

Actually figured it out.It is not Siphai but Sipahi, there was obviously a spelling error.Yes, Sipahi are well known and i think they are the Spakhs i have mentioned but in Turkish.However these were lightly armed so an increased attack value is absurd.Perhaps increased movement?

Actually the turks were very good horsemen.When they made contact with the Eastern Empire they employed succesful hit and run tactics with horse archers, a legacy of their Mongol origins.

Also although it is not customed, i find it imperative to take back all the things i said about the turks not being militaristic.The Turkish military tradition made an impact on the Muslim world and all the training and strategical combat manuals were written in turkish.Moreover the military elite of the Islamic world spoke Turkish as their second laguage.

About the new stats posted by Duddha:

I agree with all of them, apart from the Numidian of course.I had hoped for a horse archer unit, but in vain.

[Palaiologos]

I 'll be damned Tiberius.I took notice of your new post as i was writting my own.While i was writing it i accidentally pressed backspace and i was taken to the apolyton forum.I had to rewrite the whole thing.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
Actually the turks were very good horsemen.When they made contact with the Eastern Empire they employed succesful hit and run tactics with horse archers, a legacy of their Mongol origins.

Are you sure you're not confusing them with the hungarians? Because when they made contact with the europeans "they employed succesful hit and run tactics with horse archers, a legacy of their Mongol origins" ; and this was back in the 9th century.

I wonder how is more correct: spahi or sipahi? I've known them as spahi, but obviously others call them sipahi.

[Palaiologos]

Both Hungarians and Turks employed horse archer tactics "Parthian style".And both discarded them after coming into contact with europe, although the Turks much later.

In Greek it is Spakhides.I do not know about the other languages.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
I 'll be damned Tiberius.I took notice of your new post as i was writting my own.While i was writing it i accidentally pressed backspace and i was taken to the apolyton forum.I had to rewrite the whole thing.

So we basically figured it out in the same time. That's cute

[Palaiologos]

What about those Numidians? It is certain that they will be replacing spearman?will they be more expensive or perhaps a higher upkeep cost?Resourse requirments?

Hoplite and bowman become obsolete after the introduction of this superunit.