National revollutions

[Palaiologos]

History is full of revolutions of nations long conquered against their rulers.Egypt although destroyed as a state rebelled numerous times against Persian rule.During the 19th century the ottoman empire was fragmented by the rebellions of its balkan subjects.Some of this rebellions were succesful and destroyed nations resurged.Such was the case with Greece in 1821, after 400 years of turkish rule, and modern day Kurds.

Why not in Civ3?.Civilizations conquered have no chance of ever reappearing on the scene.Since national identity is implemented in the game, it would be logical that the oppressed nations would one day rebel.

I propose that when culturally inferior civilizations conquer a culturally superior civilization, the conquered civ would have a chance of rebelling against its occupants even if all of their cities are occupied.It would depent of course on the size of its cities ,the troops garrisoned and periods of general unrest in the empire.
The assimilation procedure should take much longer.

[Palaiologos]

Of course if there are a lot of happy citizens the chance would be reduced,etc.

If the rebels start winning battles the rebellion would spread,etc.

It would also be cool to have a message like "My liege,the Romans of Antium have revolted and massacred the local Greek population", thus having the assimilated citizens slain by the rebels.A sort of national cleansing.

[Caliban]

Well, hmhm, there should at least be ONE way to stop culture flipping of conquered cities one and for all:

Exterminate the enemy civilization and forget about population of that nationality.

[Palaiologos]

There should be no culture fliping.

It is historicaly inacurate.

Never in the history of mankind has cultural awe developed in a change of political control.A backward civilization may admire another's cultural achievments and adopt the other's way of life, but it is impropable that their cities switch allegiance.

[statusperfect]

PalaiologosCoracle?

[Palaiologos]

PalaiologosCoracle?

I admit i am new to Apolyton(less than a month) and therefore i know little about the people who frequently post and chat here.I have only expressed my own views.

However, i find culture fliping socialy impossible. People who stand in awe of another people's culture perhaps adopt the other's way of life but they never surrender the political control of their cities to them.

The Romans being in contact with the Greek colonies of Magna Grecia admited the superiority of the Greek culture and adopted their way of life.All Roman artwork is copied from Greek equivelants.This however, did not mean the Romans wanted to give the Greeks political control of their territory.It happened the other way around.

All i say that a conquered nation in civ3 should behave just as that.As a conquered nation.And that means it would occasionaly rise up in revolt.

If one of you gives me one example in history ,just one,
where a city out of admiration of another nation's culture decided to surrender the POLITICAL CONTROL of its society to another, i will take it all back and admit i am mistaken.

[Coracle]

Originally posted by statusperfect
PalaiologosCoracle?

No, just someone else with education enough to see what a non-historical crock Culture Flipping is. But I wouldn't mind it so much if it worked in the game mechanics - but it does NOT.


National Revolutions? Good idea! It could happen if the civ becomes bankrupt, if there is anarchy, etc. Just a CHANCE for it happening. It could also result in Civil War - something else we miss from Civ 2.

A Revolution could result in problems OR it could revitalize the civ with WLTK Days for every city. This is whay France became so powerful after the French Revolution. It MIGHT unbalance the game though.

But I like the concept.

[Coracle]

Originally posted by Palaiologos


I admit i am new to Apolyton(less than a month) and therefore i know little about the people who frequently post and chat here.I have only expressed my own views.

However, i find culture fliping socialy impossible. People who stand in awe of another people's culture perhaps adopt the other's way of life but they never surrender the political control of their cities to them.

The Romans being in contact with the Greek colonies of Magna Grecia admited the superiority of the Greek culture and adopted their way of life.All Roman artwork is copied from Greek equivelants.This however, did not mean the Romans wanted to give the Greeks political control of their territory.It happened the other way around.

All i say that a conquered nation in civ3 should behave just as that.As a conquered nation.And that means it would occasionaly rise up in revolt.

If one of you gives me one example in history ,just one,
where a city out of admiration of another nation's culture decided to surrender the POLITICAL CONTROL of its society to another, i will take it all back and admit i am mistaken.

You are NOT mistaken, You are wise.

Also note that the Culture Flipping model depends on the assumptions that there have been national cultures throughout history. This is false! Only in the past several hundred years (with some exceptions) has national cultures become a dominant factor. So Firaxis got that wrong too.

[Nubclear]

Re: National revollutions

Originally posted by Palaiologos
History is full of revolutions of nations long conquered against their rulers.Egypt although destroyed as a state rebelled numerous times against Persian rule.During the 19th century the ottoman empire was fragmented by the rebellions of its balkan subjects.Some of this rebellions were succesful and destroyed nations resurged.Such was the case with Greece in 1821, after 400 years of turkish rule, and modern day Kurds.

Why not in Civ3?.Civilizations conquered have no chance of ever reappearing on the scene.Since national identity is implemented in the game, it would be logical that the oppressed nations would one day rebel.

I propose that when culturally inferior civilizations conquer a culturally superior civilization, the conquered civ would have a chance of rebelling against its occupants even if all of their cities are occupied.It would depent of course on the size of its cities ,the troops garrisoned and periods of general unrest in the empire.
The assimilation procedure should take much longer.

That would annoy me severly...

I bairly win a war against America and finally take some city when suddenly....They all revolt! It may be historically accurate but would be annoying in a game.

However, I would like to see Civil war come back from civ2...It would make capitals something far more important than they are now.

[Palaiologos]

I think that you have all misunderstood me.I meant that nations that are totaly conquered should some day rise up and rebel against their masters.As the Hungarians have done against the Soviets, the Scotish against the English,the Ionian Greeks versus the Persian Empire, Vercicentorix and his Gauls against the Romans,etc.

Not revolutions as in social revolutions.I think my English were bad.

[whosurdaddy]

Originally posted by Caliban
Well, hmhm, there should at least be ONE way to stop culture flipping of conquered cities one and for all:

Exterminate the enemy civilization and forget about population of that nationality.

You Germans ....

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
I think that you have all misunderstood me.I meant that nations that are totaly conquered should some day rise up and rebel against their masters.As the Hungarians have done against the Soviets, the Scotish against the English,the Ionian Greeks versus the Persian Empire, Vercicentorix and his Gauls against the Romans,etc.

What you have described here is called in civ3's terms: "culture flipping" (the Hungarians flipped back to the western European culture, etc). Only it is not possible with civs that were totally destroyed/conquered. This could be an interesting addition. Maybe it could happen to civs that have a very high rate of corruption, low culture, unhappiness, or somebody conquers their capitol, etc. (there must be a trigger to activate such a rebellion)

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Coracle
Also note that the Culture Flipping model depends on the assumptions that there have been national cultures throughout history. This is false! Only in the past several hundred years (with some exceptions) has national cultures become a dominant factor.

You will never stop with your false statements, do you?
This post of you is so stupid, that it doesn't even deserves an answer.

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Palaiologos
If one of you gives me one example in history ,just one,
where a city out of admiration of another nation's culture decided to surrender the POLITICAL CONTROL of its society to another, i will take it all back and admit i am mistaken.

East Germany, 1989.

Edit:
...and virtually all the Eastern European countries flipped (or are flipping) from the Sovjet Union to the European Union. (you can count them as cities in terms of civ3: Budapest, Prague, etc and where the civs would be: Sovjet Union/Russia, European Union, USA, etc; got it?)

[dannubis]

I also agree that culture flipping is a good way to represent a secessoin of a city from its mother country... However I would like to get some kind of indication in the city screen of the probability of a culture flip happening the next turn. In this way you could raise/lower the military presence in the city in question