What Civ 3/PTW desperately needs.

[stankarp]

Having played Civ 3 a fair bit now, mainly gigantic maps with up to 15 AI, it is very obvious to me that it desparately needs two things.
1) an empire summary page that is concise, easy to read (not crammed with compressed silly faces) and allows you to quickly check the status of cities. In CTP 1 & 2 there was a very good summary which allowed you to see which cities were at risk of disorder.
2) an army based combat system to reduce the number of mouse movements and time taken for each turn. CTP had a very good simple system that reduced 12 units attacking 6 units to one mouse click with an option for a withdrawal if you started to loose.

I find that when you get to 750 AD plus, facing 10 empires still and have 40-50 cities, turns become slow, very tedious and, in fact I am getting sore eyes and a sore right hand from clicking and holding the button on the mouse all the time.

Any thoughts?

[Panag]

Re: What Civ 3/PTW desperately needs.

Originally posted by stankarp
Having played Civ 3 a fair bit now, mainly gigantic maps with up to 15 AI, it is very obvious to me that it desparately needs two things.
1) an empire summary page that is concise, easy to read (not crammed with compressed silly faces) and allows you to quickly check the status of cities. In CTP 1 & 2 there was a very good summary which allowed you to see which cities were at risk of disorder.
2) an army based combat system to reduce the number of mouse movements and time taken for each turn. CTP had a very good simple system that reduced 12 units attacking 6 units to one mouse click with an option for a withdrawal if you started to loose.

I find that when you get to 750 AD plus, facing 10 empires still and have 40-50 cities, turns become slow, very tedious and, in fact I am getting sore eyes and a sore right hand from clicking and holding the button on the mouse all the time.

Any thoughts?

hi ,

, the problem is that they never thought that the game would work with 16 civ's , now it does , ....

it can be hard , yes , but after a while you get used to it , ...

there are a number of things that you can do to make it a bit faster , close down the internet connection , shut down programs you dont need , defrag ones in a while , shut down antivirus programs , some are the reason the game goes really slow , ...

that should be a start , ...

have a nice day

[stankarp]

Thanks Panag but I think you missed the point of my thread. Its not the time the computer takes to have a move but the time it takes ME to complete a move in a big game.

If I want to stay on top of city disorder or production, it is very tedious and time consuming, either browsing over my whole empire on the map or trying to interprit those faces on the city lists. CTP had a drop down list that showed the vital information in clear black and white figures and, cities in risk of disorder were in red. Very, VERY easy to keep tabs. There was a production list as well that showed what was being produced and turns to complete and you could rush buy from there rather thatn having to go to the individual city display. Again, VERY, VERY EASY. In fact , CTP 1 had a a mini empire display at the bottom and a little box told you at a glance how many cities were in the red for that turn.

The point about combat is that YOU HAVE TO CLICK AND DRAG FOR EVERY SINGLE UNIT BOMBARDING OR HAVING COMBAT. After a while, it is just VERY, VERY TIME CONSUMING and tedious and after a while, not good for my hand or my eyes.

It seems to me that nearly 2 decades of computer games being made, that I am entitled to expect a game to have simple interfaces that are readable and concise and game mechanisms that are streamlined to make playing it INTERESTING AND FUN, NOT TEDIOUS AND A HAZARD TO MY HEALTH. I went to the optomertrist yesterday and he agreed with my assessment that much of the material on computer screens in general is very poorly laid out, with colours used to make things attractive rather than readable. Civ 3 is very poorly constructed in MANY places with very small activation targets to aim for to drop screens etc, light coloured and unecessarily small writing, and then movement is still click and drag instead of pointing to the destination and clicking once. With due respect to Firaxis, despite their warnings and disclaimers, given the propensity for Americans to litigate, I think they are foolish not to consider these issues.

[Christantine The Great]

and then movement is still click and drag instead of pointing to the destination and clicking once.

Press G when you want to move a single unit. Then click where you want it to go. For stack movement, press J.

[Christantine The Great]

And you could always use the numerical pad.

[Coracle]

Re: What Civ 3/PTW desperately needs.

Originally posted by stankarp
. . .an army based combat system to reduce the number of mouse movements and time taken for each turn. CTP had a very good simple system that reduced 12 units attacking 6 units to one mouse click with an option for a withdrawal if you started to loose.

I find that when you get to 750 AD plus, facing 10 empires still and have 40-50 cities, turns become slow, very tedious and, in fact I am getting sore eyes and a sore right hand from clicking and holding the button on the mouse all the time.

Any thoughts?

YES!!! You are so right.

After Civ 2 came out many of us wanted STACK COMBAT in which STACKS of units fought OTHER stacks, their combat strengths being combined. This one unit attacking another unit is extremely tedious later in the game, and not very realistic. Plus, with stack combat we could fight a battle realtime and give tactical commands. I saw that exact sort of thing first in the old "Kingmaker" game.

We also wanted "rally points", and combining large numbers of units into real armies, not that three unit thing Soren dreamed up and called "an army".

Modern Warfare could be most interesting, but the tedium of moving the units has caused me to give up. I just don't have that much time, nor the inclination for it.

[stankarp]

Thanks coracle for grasping some of the issues

[Christantine The Great]

I never knew that stack combat was much loved...I always thought it was too overpowered.

And if you want to cut down on turn time, why include real time battles? Play CTP if you want that.

What's wrong with a 3 unit army? I rather not have to deal with superstacks of 40+ modern armor, thank you very much.

Modern warfare is very interesting. You know why? Because if you get to use modern units, you most likely have weakling nations surrounding you who have warred from Turn One. Just blow them away with your superiority.

[Christantine The Great]

Could you please clarify "rally point"? I don't see why it's so hard to just send a unit using the go to command off to a rally point manually. Why must this be automatic?

[stankarp]

What I want to see is streamlining to reduce turn time and to make things more realistic. I have seen 1 unit destroy 14 attackers in one turn with this silly 1 v 1 system. On paper it was a 14 to 2 before modicifications (ie 6 to 1) and the attackers were all wiped. Not only that but it took 14 individual movements of the mouse to execute.

[SomeOneElse]

ah, micromanagement, the bane of most tbs games

theres very little that can effectively be done about it. improved stack commands would certainly be nice. i dont want to see stacks attacking ala ctp, i have ctp and can play that if i want that. but ordering a stack of units to attack individually with one order would be nice. i just think that this issue is extremely complicated, with no clear cut solution.

[Carver]

Originally posted by stankarp
What I want to see is streamlining to reduce turn time and to make things more realistic. I have seen 1 unit destroy 14 attackers in one turn with this silly 1 v 1 system. On paper it was a 14 to 2 before modicifications (ie 6 to 1) and the attackers were all wiped. Not only that but it took 14 individual movements of the mouse to execute.

What we have here is... a failure to communicate.

Seriously, Firaxis (as good as they are) has not communicated to us what these "battles" are supposed to represent. They haven't taught us how to percieve them. I understand the appeal of stack combat, ala CTP, it seems more realistic. Perhaps it would be easier for you to swallow the 1 vs. 1 combat if you think of these fights as battles within a battle, rather than battles themselves . You shell an infantry with your arty, You attack an infantry with armour, you attack infantry with calvalry. Think of all these fights as part of one battle. In that sense you are giving tactical orders to your troops within the battle.

The 14 units you describe being destroyed by 1 unit is harder to rationalize, allthough I don't see that often. What were the units?

[Panag]

Originally posted by SomeOneElse
ah, micromanagement, the bane of most tbs games

theres very little that can effectively be done about it. improved stack commands would certainly be nice. i dont want to see stacks attacking ala ctp, i have ctp and can play that if i want that. but ordering a stack of units to attack individually with one order would be nice. i just think that this issue is extremely complicated, with no clear cut solution.

hi ,

, it should go further then CTP , far more advanced , ...

have a nice day

[dunk]

I'm all for making unit commands simpler. You should be able to "Go To" a ship from land. You should be able to order a stack of units to attack a city or tile. Then if you win, the remaining ones either wait for new orders or enter your conquered city.

I would also like better advisor screens.

Foriegn Advisor... make it > 8 friendly. Maybe give some insight as to what the other civs want and who's on the verge of fighting. This is where the Gov type should be shown.

Military Advisor... Its fine the way it is.

Trade Advisor... Show me what other civs have in the way of excess resources, luxuries, and even cash. Also give some info as to how much the Germans want for their Spices.

Science Advisor... Tech tree is almost fine. Hovering should tell you what that tech allows you to build. The pictures aren't all that big. Also, the image for the tech shouldn't be there, sometimes I think it represents something I can build.

Culture Advisor... Should tell you which of your cities have low culture. Should tell you what foreign cities might flip sometime soon (and to build culture there to encourage the flip).

Domestic Advisor... Almost fine. Should be able to sort by every column on the screen. Should list cities in disorder in red, cities close to disorder (the next pop point will put it into disorder) in yellow or some easily distinguished color , and safe cities in black. Cities with or without aqueducts and hospitals should be designated somehow.

Obviously most of this should only be available with an embassy.

[Carver]

Originally posted by dunk999


Military Advisor... Its fine the way it is.

After you plant a spy, yes. It would be nice to have some sort of additional info before espionage.

Domestic Advisor... Almost fine. Should be able to sort by every column on the screen.

Calling Firaxis... it is 2002. Information management is the key to success in business, in research, and on the battlefield. I hate to sound like a broken record but in CTP you could go into empire managment and sort all of you cities by any statistic: population, production, happiness, commerce, pollution. This needs fixing.