Brainstorming thread for how the 24 leader units can be used in modes other regicide

[alva]

what if you kill a cl, a new one gets "born" with new civ abilities??

i.e. france starts off with Joan( commercial- scientific?)
she dies... Napoleon takes over and France becomes commercial-miliaristic (no need to change both)

just a thought (although granted it will cause a few problems)

[Mikhail]

alva: Problem with that, is it would create a 'StarCraft' type game where people get so used to the way a certain civ plays, they'll end up forgetting how to play other ones. I, personally, don't want civs to be that drastically different.

I don't see why it has to be something so complicated as all this. I'd prefer them to just have the 'capital' effect in a second city (forbidden palace being the third). Useful on a world map where your empire's liable to be spread out a lot more.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Mikhail
alva: Problem with that, is it would create a 'StarCraft' type game where people get so used to the way a certain civ plays, they'll end up forgetting how to play other ones. I, personally, don't want civs to be that drastically different.

I don't see why it has to be something so complicated as all this. I'd prefer them to just have the 'capital' effect in a second city (forbidden palace being the third). Useful on a world map where your empire's liable to be spread out a lot more.

Maybe, as earlier suggested, a leader can be used for missions. BUT, those missions take time. So, say your Perisa and you just conquered Washington which is on the other side of the world. You bring Xerxes to Washington, and then you hit something that might say

"Lawmaker Mission - 5 turns to complete" So then your leader becomes inactive for those five turns, and at the end it begins to reduce corruption

Then, you can boost Industrious by saying "Increase Production - 10 turns to complete", you wait ten turns, and then your production goes up slightly. Same with science. However, you can only do this once to every city and lawmaker is only in effect for as long as the king is within the city limits.

Just a thought.

[Firebird]

Hi,

I would prefer a CL to exist troughout the game. I like the idea of him getting reborn if killed. One could even let him die of age after randomly 40 to 80 years, die of disease (in jungle) or perhaps even killed by a new spy mission (which of course should be very costly and difficult). The spy-mission is perhaps not a likely candidate to slip into the Firaxis wish-list but it could be a realistic addition.

The death of the leader could tricker a revolution just like when you push the revolution-button. After the end of anarchy a new CL enters the scene.

When reborn she/he could be a hole new CL (go from Joan to Napoleon) as mentioned above or as Joan the II.

I like the Idea of CL giving a fighting boost to troops and a bonus to the nearest cities. I think the bonus to nearby cities should aply also when the CL is in the capital. This would ensure that she is of equal use to small countries and large empires.

That was my current thoughts. Comments are welcome.

[Stuie]

I think they should last until killed, then you're out of luck.

As for what they do, I like the idea of them developing over time. Maybe a list of abilities, pick one to start, and then gain one more each time a new era starts. So you would be forced to make some strategic decisions....

Do I want the ability to reduce corruption now, or can I wait until the next era? Would a combat bonus serve me better or should I start with a boost in culture?

And if there were more abilities than four, you would have to balance your goals for the game against the abilities you pick (or don't pick).

[Panag]

hi ,

maybe we should let the leaders as they are now , ....


have a nice day

[Switch]

perhaps the CL could, as mentioned, act like a portable forbidden palace, and when in a city for, say, 5 turns, that city will experience WLT*D, until the CL leaves (unless it meets the requirements for a WLT*D anyway). I mean, if you were in a monarchy or whatever, and the king visited your puny hamlet, you'd probably make a celebration of it.

Second thought, the city goes into WLT*D right away, but it only lasts for a limited time unless the requirements are met.

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by panag
maybe we should let the leaders as they are now , ....

Panag, we are debating about the "Call for Suggestion" that some people from Firaxis asked about not current Great Leader but the newly created Civilization Leader.

They are been developed to fit in PTW the "Regicide - Catch the King" multiplayer mode.

At this moment they aren't included in others Multiplayer or Single player mode, so we are suggesting a possible use. This is only related to the unique "Civ Leader" unit, not to the "Great Leaders" effect.

Originally posted by notyoueither
I don't know if I can agree with reinforcing a civ benefit with the leader. Imagine the first Jag kills something, now Monte takes the stage and lends his benefits to the already overwhelming Jag rush... too unbalancing.

An additional FP? Perhaps too much as well. The problem with balance in the later game right now is the difficulty of the smaller powers to be able to survive, let alone compete with the big boys (and girls). Giving massive empires an additional FP would stretch that gap even more.

What might be good though are some limited, location specific benefits. Give the leader 'missions' like so:

LawMaker- The leader acts as a CourtHouse in the city he/she is in.

Morale- The presence of the leader turns one or two discontented citizens to content in the city he/she is in.

Merchant- The leader gives a 25 or 50% boost to the Gold Income of the city he/she is in.

Scientist- The leader gives a 25 or 50% boost to the Beakers of the city he/she is in.

The Leaders should exist from the start, and they could if their effects are not too large. It would give the players, both human and AI a way of focusing attention on a specific area of development in specific cities as needed. Everyone could benefit from them, whether builder or war monger, and the loss of them would not be catastrophic for the losing civ.

Oh, one last thing. Perhaps a civ who loses it's leader could opt to turn a GL into a CL (Civ Leader) to replace a loss.

I agree that a Civ Leader shouldn't (by himself) widen the gap between the small and the large Civ.

In fact I suspect that the whole concept of managing a Civ Leader will be an hell for the AI.

Anyway, I think that the "King mission" concept is interesting but too much intricated (a game into the game: do we need one? ).

A "mobile Palace" is more easy to manage, but to avoid the unbalancing effect for Large vs. Small civ that must come paired with a tune down on the palace itself.

This way, in a small Civ you can keep the Civ Leader near the palace, adding the effect into a greater efficiency and so on, while on a large Civ you can move around but loosing the focus (the Palace will act less effectively against inefficiency).

I'm not against the idea to focus a bit the CL in his/her Civilization Unique Point, but as a general rule it should be as a Queen in Chess Game: powerful, but too much important to leave her unprotected. And no, if you lose your CL, it's gone forever, IMHO.

Gimme a militaristic CL that inside city can act as a temporary Barrack, or a temporary Wall (defense bonus) or a Scientific CL that can act as a temporary Library (or University bonus, if the library is already built).
Temporary Marketplace/Bank for Commercial Civ Leader and so on.
So every Civ leader can have one of the two Unique Trait (they can change every game) or have both, it's a matter of balancing, and a general "mobile palace bonus".

While Firaxis left out from the final Civ III the Great People (not military) effects, they can bring back some limiting it to the Civ Leader.

[Dr. Stiby]

The idea of the CL has potential and a lot of good ideas have been raised. A point I definitely do not agree with is the death and rebirth of CL's. I think every civ should have one CL. It just wouldn't make sense to have CL's acording to era. Who would be the American CL in 4000 BC, or the Aztec CL in the modern era?
This however raises a question about what's to happen if a CL gets killed. It would be really disadvantageous if you loose your leader in the beginning of the game in a moment of weakness.
Therefore I suggest that a CL can't be killed by your opponent. They can however capture him and keep the CL captive in their capital. This will give you a chance to liberate and thus recapture your CL.

Some ideas on the traits:

Militaristic: gives the most possibilities. A lot of options from morale boosts, defense and attack bonuses or faster promotions. An interesting idea might be the option to draft citizens without causing unhappiness (it's an honor to be drafted by the great Montezuma!).

Scientific: thinking of science bonuses is really easy but it doesn't make too much sense. It's easy to picture a CL motivating an army, but picturing one motivating scientists is harder. Therfor I'm not sure how a CL can result in ascience bonus.

Industrious: this is easy. A CL can motivate the citizens to work harder and thus improving production. A CL could motivate workers who are nearby to finish jobs faster as well.

Commercial: like scientific ít wouldn't make much sense to have a CL improve gold production in a city. Maybe a CL can be used in negotiations with oter Civs. this can result in better prices for luxuries or resources you're trading with other civs.

Expansionist: Having a CL in your city might make citizens happy enough to make a lot of babies, thus improving city growth.

Religious: Of course a CL can result in happiness throughout cities. Him visiting a city with a colosseum (and thus attending the games) might make an extra number of citizens happy. Of course civil diorders can be stopped by the arrival of the CL.

[kring]

The old ransom trick. It worked in the Middle Ages; even works somewhat today, esp. in some countries.

[Dr. Stiby]

Originally posted by kring
The old ransom trick. It worked in the Middle Ages; even works somewhat today, esp. in some countries.

Ransom, forgot all about it. Sure you're right.
Liberate the CL or pay for his return. Thnx!

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Dr. Stiby

Ransom, forgot all about it. Sure you're right.
Liberate the CL or pay for his return. Thnx!

Ooh, yes. I like the ransom idea. Capture the leader and take him to your capital; he becomes a tradeable item with the civ you took him from.

[wrylachlan]

How about have your CL start with base attributes and have them increase over time. When it is killed, it respawns back at your capital and returns to its base skill level.

I think all abilities of the CL should be proximity effects, and there should be one for each characteristic, but all civs get all bonuses, and the civ with the specific charachteristic gets a little more. I know this sounds confusing, but this should explain it.

Militaristic
If you are militaristic, your CL gives a minor AD bonus to nearby troops. If youre not, the CL gives a slightly larger bonus just to defense. That way, the small nation that doesn't want to go to war can keep its CL well protected.

Commercial
All CL's act as a Forbidden Palace, but in a much smaller radius. Commercial civs get a slightly larger radius.

Expansionistic
If the CL is in a city building a settler, the cost of the settler goes down. Expansionistic civs pay slightly less.

Industrial
Workers within a certain radius work faster. Industrial civs get a slightly larger radius.

Scientific
When the CL is in a city it gets a science bonus. Scientific civs get a larger bonus.

Religious
Percentage bonus to the effect of religious buildings in a certain radius (maybe nearest 3 or 4 cities). Religious civ gets a slightly larger radius.

With the CL giving bonuses to every aspect with only a slightly greater bonus for the attributes of the specific civ you won't run into the compounding of the Jaguar rush problem. Additionally each of the bonuses increases over time, so a CL that manages to live till the fourth era without dying would be quite formidable. But I guess its all a playbalance thing. If they get too powerful, then just tone down the bonus percentages.

[alva]

maybe a cl could prevent a city from "flipping" to the other side, again, just a thought

they could be linked to goverment as well btw I.E.:
despotism = one extra shield
monarchy = two extra ..... etc.
only in the city he resides, this wouldn't be too unbalancing and sometimes just one extra shield can be very important.

i agree that a CL counting as an mobile palace is abit much

[Adm.Naismith]

Originally posted by Dr. Stiby
Scientific: thinking of science bonuses is really easy but it doesn't make too much sense. It's easy to picture a CL motivating an army, but picturing one motivating scientists is harder. Therfor I'm not sure how a CL can result in ascience bonus.

You forgot Renaissance and the main role Leaders played, "sponsoring" great artist and researcher.
Leonardo Da Vinci and the support he gest from Ludovico il Moro (since 1482 AD), Cesare Borgia (since 1502 AD), and finally the France King Francesco I (since 1516) is one of the most relevant example.

Commercial: like scientific ít wouldn't make much sense to have a CL improve gold production in a city. Maybe a CL can be used in negotiations with oter Civs. this can result in better prices for luxuries or resources you're trading with other civs.

Many Leaders played relevant role in trading, not only by direct diplomatic role, but also because they supported by laws trades and early banks (don't forget the moneyleander at the core of Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice)

Expansionist: Having a CL in your city might make citizens happy enough to make a lot of babies, thus improving city growth.

Why not "ius primae noctis" in large?