Brainstorming thread for how the 24 leader units can be used in modes other regicide

[monkspider]

At the request of our beloved Jeff, let's try to brainstorm interesting uses for the new leader units announced in the recent chat event. These are going to be actual units of leaders such as Montezuma, Elizabeth, Genghis Kahn, etc. that are going to in regicide mode, but are also being looked at possibly being integrated into the other modes as well.
It could be interesting if each civ started off with their leaders, and could add to the statistics of each unit within a certain range of them. However, once they died you could not regain them for the rest of the game.
Another possibilty is that wherever your leader unit is, that city sees a decrease in corruption, increase in culture, increase in happiness, or perhaps a combonation of the three.

What does Apolyton think? Any further thoughts? I think there is a lot of potential here for interesting gameplay.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Could have a vision of 2 squares and when entering barbarian village, will eliminate barbarian uprising as a possible event.

[Nostromo]

Re: Brainstorming thread for how the 24 leader units can be used in modes other regicide

Originally posted by monkspider

It could be interesting if each civ started off with their leaders, and could add to the statistics of each unit within a certain range of them. However, once they died you could not regain them for the rest of the game.
Another possibilty is that wherever your leader unit is, that city sees a decrease in corruption, increase in culture, increase in happiness, or perhaps a combonation of the three.

Nice. I like those ideas. But please, Firaxis, nothing silly. I don't want to see Alexander or good ol' Mao trashing their foes like Sauron in the Lord of ring movie intro scene.

[Hoznog]

How about as a roaming version of the forbiden palace? I am a massive expander sometimes making it to Orleans 3, and so it's very early in the game when I need to use my forbidden palace that I usually end up rebuilding my palace in the late game to better distribute its effects. But if I could move a leader to where corruption is brutal and help those cities develop it would kick butt.

Perhaps make the leader a benefit for building the heroic epic where the next leader generated in battle would have the effect of a palace. Afterall Heroic Epic quickly becomes redundant anyway.

[Harlan]

I like the idea of your leader being a boost whereever it goes. Less corruption, more happiness, etc... You want to prevent it from just sitting in the capital city all the time. Having it also boost the attack and defense of all units within a certain radius would be good. Then you'd want to bring it near the action, but not so near that you'd lose it.

These leaders should come with the start of your Golden Age. You obviously can't have them all start at the beginning of the game when you have 0 units.

The big problem I see is having the AI use them properly. Not putting them in a reckless position, but also not wasting their potential. The AI should keep a lot of units with the leader at all times.

Howabout, in the regular game, having them die at the same time the Golden Age ends. "With the death of great Montezuma, your Golden Age has ended". That would prevent civs with an early leader appearance from having a disproportionate bonus from them. It makes sense too: its a bit silly to have someone live for thousands of years.

[Harlan]

Another idea:

what if the leader matches the abilities of the civ? So a military civ gets a military bonus for units near the leader, a scientific civ gets a scientific percent bonus in whatever city the leader is in, an industrial civ gets a production bonus, religous extra happiness, commercial extra money. Since each civ has two attributes, each leader would as well.

Expansionist is a hard one. Maybe +1 food permanently for each turn the leader spends in the city? I would just say plus growth, but the problem there is the city would starve away most of the gains when the leader left. Religious you also might want the happiness to be small but permanent, since all your cities could be happy to begin with, making that attribute useless. In fact, perhaps for all but the military, the effects could be small but permanent.

The AI could be taught to go to the city that would produce the most gain. So for a scientific civ, the leader would go to the city producing the most science, to boost that by a certain percentage. Except for the warrior leaders, who would linger near the battlefronts.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Harlan

These leaders should come with the start of your Golden Age. You obviously can't have them all start at the beginning of the game when you have 0 units.

The big problem I see is having the AI use them properly. Not putting them in a reckless position, but also not wasting their potential. The AI should keep a lot of units with the leader at all times.

Howabout, in the regular game, having them die at the same time the Golden Age ends. "With the death of great Montezuma, your Golden Age has ended". That would prevent civs with an early leader appearance from having a disproportionate bonus from them. It makes sense too: its a bit silly to have someone live for thousands of years.

Great idea, it might be kind of sad to see your leader leave you at the end of 20 turns though.

It would provide a great impetus for the formation of the leader unit though, and could make golden ages even more exciting. Say when your golden age begins, Montezuma will appear in your capital and you can move him where you want from there.

It could also add a new level of strategic depth for golden ages, maybe you need a quick boost of science to catch up with a dreaded foe, or you have reached a critical juncture, and you need more money, or maybe you need decreased corruption in those recently conquered territories, so you will make sure you get a golden age soon.

All in all a great idea Harlan.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Harlan
Another idea:

what if the leader matches the abilities of the civ? So a military civ gets a military bonus for units near the leader, a scientific civ gets a scientific percent bonus in whatever city the leader is in, an industrial civ gets a production bonus, religous extra happiness, commercial extra money. Since each civ has two attributes, each leader would as well.

Expansionist is a hard one. Maybe +1 food permanently for each turn the leader spends in the city? I would just say plus growth, but the problem there is the city would starve away most of the gains when the leader left. Religious you also might want the happiness to be small but permanent, since all your cities could be happy to begin with, making that attribute useless. In fact, perhaps for all but the military, the effects could be small but permanent.

The AI could be taught to go to the city that would produce the most gain. So for a scientific civ, the leader would go to the city producing the most science, to boost that by a certain percentage. Except for the warrior leaders, who would linger near the battlefronts.

Another great idea!
However, if their benefits are more specialized, I think it would be more fun if these leaders lasted from the beginning of the game until they were killed. Otherwise, they might seem kind of meager if they only lasted twenty turns.

Let's see
Religous- increased happiness
Miltaristic- increase unit stats
expansionist- maybe cities grow two sizes instead of one where the leader is? Or maybe just decreased culture?
scientific- increase science
Commerical- increased wealth
industrious- increased shields

[Cesa]

Originally posted by Harlan
Another idea:

what if the leader matches the abilities of the civ? So a military civ gets a military bonus for units near the leader, a scientific civ gets a scientific percent bonus in whatever city the leader is in, an industrial civ gets a production bonus, religous extra happiness, commercial extra money. Since each civ has two attributes, each leader would as well.

Expansionist is a hard one. Maybe +1 food permanently for each turn the leader spends in the city? I would just say plus growth, but the problem there is the city would starve away most of the gains when the leader left. Religious you also might want the happiness to be small but permanent, since all your cities could be happy to begin with, making that attribute useless. In fact, perhaps for all but the military, the effects could be small but permanent.

The AI could be taught to go to the city that would produce the most gain. So for a scientific civ, the leader would go to the city producing the most science, to boost that by a certain percentage. Except for the warrior leaders, who would linger near the battlefronts.

Very nice

Perhaps the military leader could work like a barrack, the produced units in the city the leader is in starts with one more hit point then otherwise, could be used together with barracs for a nice effect

If the leader improved success rate of battle it would perhaps be too powerful imho, but on the other hand it would be a risk keeping it close to battle. But I still think it would be too powerful, you'd just keep all units in one stack together with the leader, almost impossible for the other nation to kill. Perhaps just a small bonus, +10% or +25% to attack OR defence. Or the bonus could apply to UU's only, but that would make the games even more predictable (hmm, wonder if the Germans are going to try to conquer now or wait til they have the panzer...? )

[Harlan]

I think these special leaders should also have a decent defense value. If they have no defense, then you could catch them and make them yours, which makes no sense. Plus, if you have a battle with them in it, it would be more exciting to see if you can kill one instead of it being a foregone conclusion.

[Hoznog]

if they appear when you enter a golden age instead of having them amplify your current civ specific traits how about a pop up appearing allowing you to chose one other trait to add to your civ (but may not choose one you already have) until your leader dies of natural causes (end of golden age) or is killed in combat. I think that would be more usefull. I could time my wars to the extra effect of militaristic or while religious switch all my cities to build cathedrals and such.

what do you think? discuss.

[notyoueither]

I don't know if I can agree with reinforcing a civ benefit with the leader. Imagine the first Jag kills something, now Monte takes the stage and lends his benefits to the already overwhelming Jag rush... too unbalancing.

An additional FP? Perhaps too much as well. The problem with balance in the later game right now is the difficulty of the smaller powers to be able to survive, let alone compete with the big boys (and girls). Giving massive empires an additional FP would stretch that gap even more.

What might be good though are some limited, location specific benefits. Give the leader 'missions' like so:

LawMaker- The leader acts as a CourtHouse in the city he/she is in.

Morale- The presence of the leader turns one or two discontented citizens to content in the city he/she is in.

Merchant- The leader gives a 25 or 50% boost to the Gold Income of the city he/she is in.

Scientist- The leader gives a 25 or 50% boost to the Beakers of the city he/she is in.

The Leaders should exist from the start, and they could if their effects are not too large. It would give the players, both human and AI a way of focusing attention on a specific area of development in specific cities as needed. Everyone could benefit from them, whether builder or war monger, and the loss of them would not be catastrophic for the losing civ.

Oh, one last thing. Perhaps a civ who loses it's leader could opt to turn a GL into a CL (Civ Leader) to replace a loss.

[monkspider]

That's absolutely brilliant NYE, we have been forgetting to take into account the already great disparity between large and small civs as the game goes on. Your solution is definitely on the right track.

[Inverse Icarus]

if you wanted to intergrate leaders into the standard game, they could give a extra attack / defense point to nearby units, and if they die, yuo plunge into anarchy. eh?

[ranskaldan]

If these Civ Leader Units represent the actual human or AI players (Cleopatra, Alexander, Mao, etc), shouldn't they therefore exist throughout the game?

Their powers would be minor at the beginning and build up slowly through time.

Finally, the problem of the civ leader getting killed: by logic the game would then end for that player, but that of course wouldn't make for a playable game. Perhaps the civ leader would then be respawned in the capital city.

In short: a weaker CL, but one that exists throughout the entire game.

edit: ubercrux's idea is good too.