Would this make the scientific trait more useful?

[ChaotikVisions]

While playing a game and upgrading my units yet another time after discovering better tech, I had an idea. Since alot think the scientific trait is kinda uselss, 3 free advances and less costly science structures, how about adding upgrading units at half cost? Since they're scientific they'd adapt to new technology more quickly, and it'd be a definite value to players then. Anyway, tell me what you guys think. I'd have posted this in general btw, but since major changes probably aren't gonna happen through patches, I decided to put it here in hopes for XP.

[Carver]

Re: Would this make the scientific trait more useful?

Originally posted by ChaotikVisions
Since alot think the scientific trait is kinda uselss, 3 free advances and less costly science structures,

The scientific trait is one of the two most useful (with religious) in the game. Making it more powerful would really make other traits, ala expansionist, unattractive. I don't know about anybody else, but I'll take three freebie advances any day of the week.

[Solver]

I agree with Carver that Scientific is quite useful as it is. And in any case, 50% less to upgrade cost is too powerful. It's a free benefit of a Wonder (!), and something that is there for the enitre game. I'll build lots of Warriors, get Iron Working, upgrade all to Swordsmen for really little money...hm... too powerful.

[statusperfect]

Industrial and religious are overpowered. (industrial for the worker effectivity and religious for one turn revolutions and cheap temples) I always have to move down one difficulty level when i play a non-industrous civ.

If you make religious and industrous weaker the other traits will be well balanced.

[ChaotikVisions]

Hmm, I hadn't noticed much of a bonus using scientific, the main trait I usually aim for is industrious. I just like being able to get my continent set up quickly. But I guess half cost would be too powerful, it just seemed like 3 advances was a bit small.

[monkspider]

expansionist is the only trait that needs work IMHO

[dunk]

Originally posted by statusperfect
Industrial and religious are overpowered. (industrial for the worker effectivity and religious for one turn revolutions and cheap temples) I always have to move down one difficulty level when i play a non-industrous civ.

I disagree with these traits being overpowered. It seems like you have found a good way to play with the Japanese(?). I think all the traits are fine the way they are. Remember, other players may perform better with other traits.

I like the Scientific trait as is. It gives you 3 free techs (Nationalism without any research is a big plus), and half price buildings (remember, libraries, universities, research labs also contribute to culture).

If you have to turn the difficulty down with other traits, that just means you haven't used them to your advantage properly. Each civ plays differently. Religious civs can change governments easier, militaristic civs get more leaders on average, industrious civs build roads and such faster, expansionist civs get more and better goodie huts, commercial civs get trade bonuses (cheaper airports & harbors). Then there's the UUs for each civ, a whole other ballgame.

[Spiffor]

Half priced upgrades are way too powerful. Germans would be invincible if you so this. I think scientific is pretty solid, in terms of culture esp. Plus, many wonders are scientific, and it's easy to get a peaceful golden age. I don't know if you often play with unscientific Civs, but it's horrible to build universities with them, and libraries take too much time too IMO.
Industrious is not that overpowered (granted, I only play industrious Civs ) : when you're not industrious, you just have to produce twice more workers, which isn't that problematic once you have a steady population growth.
Religious rules, tat's a given. Luckily, the Egyptian UU sucks, they'd be horribly powerful otherwise.

Dunk999 :
Commercial is good (reduces corruption, and gives extra money on cities/metropolises), but not as great as you think : commercial buildings are not twice cheaper.

[moomin]

Religeous +++++
Industrious ++
Scientific ++++

Use a lot of free captured workers, fer crist's sake.

[punkbass2000]

Commercial is on the verge of useless. It needs complete re-tooling. Scientific is decent, IMO. If I had to order the traits based on overall usefulness (ie. no specific maps, like huge pangaea, 60%, for expansionist), I would say:
Religious
Industrious
Scientific+Militaristic
Expansionistic
Commercial

[Mikhail]

I'd put Scientific above Religious. Religious only really shines when it comes to revolutions. I only change governments twice a game as it is (Depotism - Republic - Democracy). I don't start wars, and am always defensive, so democracy's war weariness rarely effects me.

Industrial is the best in the game, period. uber-workers are very very important. Then Scientific.

Expansionist is only useful in the beginning of the game. And it's VERY useful then too. Can make the difference of winning, or being trapped on a peninsula.

[punkbass2000]

I would say religious shines with half price temples and cathedrals. I find them generally more useful than libraries and universities.

[monkspider]

Religious is probably the best overall trait, but I see nothing wrong with scientific, cheap libraries and Unis plus a free tech. Commericial is a little weak, giving them cheaper marketplaces and banks would go a long way to making them about as good as any. In fact, I'm a little mystified why this wasn't done in the beginning.
Expansionist is the only trait that needs a LOT of work IMHO. What a lot of mods have done, and what I reccemending doing is giving them a "pioneer" unit that functions essentially as a settler but costs 20 shields instead of 30 and can move 2. If Firaxis does this in the XP, expansionist civs would be on about an equal footing with the rest of the civs.

[punkbass2000]

IMO, the problem with augmenting Expansionistic civs is that on a Huge, Pangaea, 60% water map, expansionistic is already too powerful. On that kind of map, you kind easily find yourself in the middle ages by 1000AD, without trading. Any benefits given to expansionistic civs would make it completely overwhelming as a civ trait. Can you imagine the Iroquois in that situation with 20 shield settlers? Religious is generally regarded to be a solid trait, expansionistic in that situations is insane, MWs are among the best UUs and 2/3 price settlers on top? Why even play the game? Just declare yourself the winner!

[Cyclotron]

I happen to like scientific... cheap libraries are great.

On another note, exactly how much does commercial actually do for corruption? It seems like anything battling corruption would be great, but what is the actual factor?