Comparing Civ2 scenarios to the possibilities in Civ3 (for SP scenarios)

[Steve Clark]

I have not been around much and therefore, not kept up with the various developments in Civ3. As some of you know, I have been keying on the promise and capabilities of Civ3 scenarios for 18 months now (it’s the only part of Civ3 that interests me). Now with the news about the expansion pack and the soon-to-be-released scenario editor, I am still unclear as to how Civ3 scenarios will work, esp. in comparison to the many of the great Civ2 scenarios.

I have been under the perception that due to the “simple yet deep” model of Civ2, the Civ2 scenarios can be tailored to any time period or event, as well as modeling its uniqueness with accurate maps, custom units, custom tech tree, unique graphics and play-driven events. Thus, designers like Capt Nemo can develop really accurate WW2 scenarios (Second Front, Red Front) or someone like Paul Cullivan (Kull) do the same for the Ancient Age scenarios. To give an example or two of what I mean, here are some of the files from Kull’s Seeds of Greatness scenario (the only one I have on hand and my favorite one anyway):

Here’s part of the rules file that show his completely customized tech tree (in part):

Pictographs, 4, 2, nil, nil, 0, 3 ; AFl Advanced Flight
Star Observations, 3, 1, Alp, nil, 1, 3 ; Amp Amphibious Warfare
Aristocracy, 4, 1, Cmn, Ldr, 3, 2 ; Ato Atomic Theory
Egyptian Culture, 1, 0, no, no, 0, 2 ; Aut *** Automobile
Food Surplus, 4, 1, E1, nil, 2, 1 ; Ban Banking
Bridge Building, 4, 0, Rec, Mat, 3, 4 ; Bri
Bronze Age, 7, 0, Mon, Cmp, 2, 4 ; Bro Bronze Working
Copper Age, 5, 0, Pot, Alp, 1, 4 ; CA Combined Arms
Internal Revolt, 1, 0, no, no, 0, 0 ; Cmb Combustion
Empire, 8, 0, Med, ToG, 2, 2 ; Cmn Communism
Use of Tin, 4, 1, CA, Esp, 1, 4 ; Cmp Computers
Chariot Tactics, 6,-1, Met, Cmn, 2, 0 ; Csc Conscription
Fortifications, 5, 0, Mas, Feu, 1, 4 ; Cst Construction
Monetary Taxation, 4, 0, Cur, Cmn, 3, 1 ; Cor The Corporation
Domestication, 4, 1, Pot, nil, 0, 1 ; Eco Economics
The Plow, 4, 2, Eco, nil, 1, 1 ; E1 Electricity
Class Structure, 3, 1, nil, nil, 0, 2 ; E2 Electronics
Civic Planning, 3, 1, Med, Bro, 2, 4 ; Env Environmentalism
Sickle Sword, 4,-1, Las, CA, 1, 0 ; Esp Espionage
Explosives, 1, 0, no, no, 0, 0 ; Exp N/A
Ranged Fire Tactics,4,-1, Esp, nil, 1, 0 ; Feu Feudalism
Bronze Weapons, 4,-1, Bro, Feu, 2, 0 ; Fli Flight
Theocracy, 1, 0, no, no, 0, 0 ; Fun N/A *** Fundamentalism
Fishing, 3, 0, Eco, nil, 1, 1 ; FP Fusion Power
Improved Harness, 3,-1, Whe, Hor, 1, 0 ; Gen Genetic Engineering
Eighteen Foot Pike, 5,-2, Min, nil, 3, 0 ; Gun Gunpowder (Sell Barracks)
Assyrian Culture, 1, 0, no, no, 0, 2 ; Ind *** Industrialization
Persian Culture, 1, 0, no, no, 0, 2 ; Inv *** Invention
Iron Age, 7, 0, Mys, Sth, 3, 4 ; Iro Iron Working
Legion Tactics, 6,-1, X6, nil, 3, 0 ; Lab Labor Union
Leather Armor, 4,-1, War, nil, 1, 0 ; Las The Laser
Pantheon, 5, 1, Phi, Mys, 3, 2 ; MT Monotheism
Naue Type II Sword, 8, 0, Csc, nil, 2, 0 ; NF Nuclear Fission
Centurions, 6,-1, Ref, nil, 3, 0 ; X5
Greek Fire, 5, 0, Che, Mob, 3, 3 ; X7


…and here are some of the customized units from the same file:

Bronze Infantry II,Too, 0, 1.,0, 5a,2d, 2h,2f, 4,0, 0, NF, 000010000000100 ; Pikemen
Bronze Infantry I,Too, 0, 1.,0, 4a,2d, 1h,1f, 3,0, 0, Fli, 000000000000000 ; Musketeers
Scythian Horde,nil, 0, 3.,0, 10a,4d, 3h,3f, 40,0, 0, RR, 000000000000000 ; Fanatics
Slave Revolt, nil, 0, 1.,0, 2a,2d, 2h,1f, 3,0, 1, RR, 000001000000010 ; Partisans
Iron Infantry II, Gun, 0, 1.,0, 6a,3d, 2h,2f, 5,0, 0, Min, 000010000000000 ; Alpine Troops
Iron Infantry I, Ref, 0, 1.,0, 5a,3d, 2h,2f, 4,0, 1, Too, 000010000000000 ; Riflemen
Armored Cavalry,nil, 0, 3.,0, 9a,4d, 2h,3f, 12,0, 0, Mob, 100000000000000 ; Marines
Cyrus II, nil, 0, 4.,0, 12a,5d, 2h,3f, 50,0, 0, RR, 100000000000001 ; Paratroopers
Alexander, nil, 0, 5.,0, 14a,5d, 2h,4f, 50,0, 0, RR, 100000000000001 ; Mech. Inf.
Horsemen, Roc, 0, 4.,0, 2a,1d, 1h,1f, 3,0, 0, Hor, 100000000000000
Early Chariot,Gen, 0, 3.,0, 3a,1d, 1h,1f, 2,0, 0, Whe, 000000000000000 ; Chariot
Light Cavalry,nil, 0, 5.,0, 4a,1d, 2h,1f, 3,0, 0, Roc, 100000000000000 ; Elephant
Chariot II, Gun, 0, 4.,0, 5a,2d, 1h,1f, 5,0, 0, ToG, 100000000000000 ; Crusaders
Chariot I, Met, 0, 3.,0, 4a,1d, 1h,1f, 4,0, 0, Gen, 100000000000000 ; Knights
Sea Peoples, nil, 0, 1.,0, 6a,2d, 2h,2f, 20,0, 0, RR, 100100000000100 ; Dragoons
Desert Raiders,nil,0, 3.,0, 8a,2d, 2h,2f, 20,0, 0, RR, 000000000000000 ; Cavalry
Siege Tower, nil, 0, 1.,0, 9a,1d, 1h,2f, 10,0, 0, U3, 000000001000000 ; Armor
Ladder Tower, U3, 0, 1.,0, 4a,1d, 1h,1f, 2,0, 0, Whe, 000000001000000 ; Catapult
Battering Ram,nil, 0, 1.,0, 7a,1d, 1h,1f, 5,0, 0, U2, 000000001000000 ; Cannon
Catapult, nil, 0, 2.,0, 6a,1d, 1h,1f, 6,0, 0, Mat, 000000001000000 ; Artillery
Armored Tower,nil, 0, 1.,0, 14a,2d, 2h,2f, 16,0, 0, Eng, 000010001000000 ; Howitzer
Phalanx I, Ref, 0, 2.,0, 7a,3d, 2h,2f, 6,0, 0, Gun, 000000000000000 ; Fighter
Phalanx II, Ref, 0, 2.,0, 9a,3d, 2h,2f, 8,0, 0, Ldr, 000000000000000 ; Bomber
Legion I, nil, 0, 2.,0, 8a,4d, 2h,2f, 8,0, 1, Ref, 000000000000000 ; Helicopter
Legion II, nil, 0, 2.,0, 10a,4d, 2h,2f, 10,0, 0, X5, 000000000000000 ; Stlth Ftr.
Minos, nil, 2, 4.,0, 8a,3d, 2h,2f, 50,0, 2, RR, 100000000001011 ; Stlth Bmbr.
Early Galley, Plu, 2, 3.,0, 2a,1d, 1h,1f, 10,2, 2, RR, 100000000100010 ; Trireme
Troop Galley, nil, 2, 5.,0, 0a,2d, 2h,1f, 5,3, 4, Plu, 100000000100010 ; Caravel
Early Sail, SE, 2, 3.,0, 0a,1d, 1h,1f, 2,1, 4, Stl, 100000000000010 ; Galleon
Quinquireme, nil, 2, 6.,0, 7a,4d, 3h,3f, 8,2, 2, X1, 100000000000010 ; Frigate
Quadrireme, X1, 2, 6.,0, 6a,3d, 2h,2f, 7,1, 2, Mag, 100000000000010 ; Ironclad
Trikonter, Tac, 2, 3.,0, 4a,1d, 1h,1f, 3,0, 2, Sup, 100000000101010 ; Destroyer
Pentekonter, Phy, 2, 4.,0, 4a,2d, 1h,1f, 4,0, 2, Tac, 100000000101010 ; Cruiser
Bireme I, NP, 2, 4.,0, 5a,2d, 1h,2f, 4,0, 2, Phy, 100000000101010 ; AEGIS Cruiser
Trireme, NP, 2, 4.,0, 6a,3d, 2h,2f, 6,0, 2, Plu, 100000000101010 ; Battleship
Bireme II, nil, 2, 6.,0, 5a,3d, 2h,2f, 5,0, 2, NP, 100000000001011 ; Submarine
Dromon, nil, 2, 5.,0, 8a,2d, 1h,3f, 8,0, 2, Rob, 100000000000010 ; Carrier
Merchant Ship,nil, 2, 4.,0, 0a,1d, 1h,1f, 3,1, 4, SE, 100000000000010 ; Transport
Earthquake, nil, 1, 31.,1, 10a,0d, 1h,1f, 20,0, 0, RR, 001000001000001 ; Cruise Msl.
Storm, nil, 1, 31.,1, 10a,0d, 1h,1f, 40,0, 0, RR, 001000000000001 ; Nuclear Msl.
Royal Envoy, nil, 0, 2.,0, 0a,0d, 1h,1f, 5,0, 6, Cmn, 100000000000010 ; Diplomat
Palace Guard, nil, 0, 0.,0, 1a,4d, 2h,2f, 5,0, 1, RR, 000000000000000 ; Spy
Greek Fire, nil, 0, 0.,0, 1a,4d, 3h,1f, 8,0, 1, X7, 000000000000000 ; Caravan

Finally, here are some of the events from the Egyptian events file:

(this one creates a new unit at a specific location)
@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Warriors
attacker=Egyptians
defender=Barbarians
@THEN
TEXT
Another town is added to the Egyptian Empire! The defeated
survivors are enslaved and sent to till the fields of Memphis.
Pharoah takes 50 gold as his share of the booty!
ENDTEXT
changemoney
receiver=TRIGGERATTACKER
amount=50
CREATEUNIT
unit=Farmers
owner=Egyptians
veteran=yes
homecity=none
locations
54,88
56,88
endlocations
@ENDIF

(this one changes the terrain of a tile or two)
@IF
TURN
turn=200
@THEN
TEXT
^The great volcano Thera explodes near Crete!
ENDTEXT
CHANGETERRAIN
terraintype=9
maprect
30,40,30,40,30,40,30,40
PLAYWAVEFILE
volcano.wav
@ENDIF
@IF
TURN
turn=200
@THEN
CHANGETERRAIN
terraintype=10
maprect
29,41,29,41,29,41,29,41
@ENDIF

(other common events include giving a specific advance or random events that can be good or bad).

---------

So what I am trying to understand is what to expect with Civ3 scenarios. Here are my questions:

I assumed that the increased modes of winning will allow for a wider range of scenarios, is this correct? In other words, most of the historical scenarios in Civ2 called for capturing (or defending) X number of cities. There will still be this in Civ3 plus objectives like "Be the dominant culture by year X"?


Are there limitations in the way the bic files are setup and deployed in the game that could limit the flexibility in creating the diverse scenarios we’ve seen in Civ2? Did I read that changing the turn length might be a problem? Why???

Civ2 did not have a scripting language and did not need one, imo. But even with the simplistic Microprose scenarios, the events.txt file was included which, along with the Objectives, became the fundamental tool for Civ2 scenarios. Civ3 will have something like this, won’t it? I mean, how can one throw up a message box based on an event in Civ3?

Finally, with many of the “hard-coded” elements of Civ3 (as compared to Civ2), will this restrict the way a historical (or fantasy) scenario can be designed and played? In other words, Civ3 scenarios should have everything Civ2 had plus more (quote from Firaxis).

[Spiffor]

To begin, I think the editor was developed very late. MikeB said " If you had seen the editor before I get my hands on it..." or something like that. That's why the current editor only allows to create maps (without a minimap to help) and to tweak rules. The concept of a specific Civ -which is needed to implement cities, units etc- only exists since the latest patch.
It is currently impossible to place/edit cities and units on the map, not even fixed starting positions. But this should come with the patch in June.

So we have currently no ability to create scenarios like the WW2 scenario out of the Civ2 box.

But we can tweak rules : change the names, icons, requisites, era, effects etc of the techs. For example, I want to have ships earlier. I can say that Mapmaking only needs alphabet, I can rename the tech to "hullmaking", and I can say it doesn't allow map trading.
But it is currently impossible to add new techs, because the numbers of icons is limited. The tech-icons (as most graphics) are in PCX format. I have yet to see a graphic in Civ3 that is not editable. I think every graphics are editable without hacked tools. But as the graphics in Civ3 are outstanding, most fanmade graphics look inferior, though.
Personally, I didn't toy too much with the techs, but you can see a deeply modified tech tree in the WW2 - Mein Kampf mod, in the files section.

It is perfectly possible to modify the looks of units : the animations are in FLC files, which can be replaced. Many fans have already made their units (my favorite is TVA's Tongkang). You can find a bunch of new uits in the downloads section at Civfanatics. The limitation is that we cannot currently ADD custom units, without a hacked editor.
It's also possible to rename units, and to edit what they'll do, in a much simpler way than Civ2 : let's say I'm making an industrial-era mod. I'll never need the ancient spearsman, but I need a Japanese Howitzer. I change the graphics, I rename the unit, I make it able to bombard by clicking on a box, I change the figures, I say it's "wheeled" rather than a "foot soldier", and I say that only the Japanese can have it. Voilà ! I have a completely new unit, which replaces the useless spearman. Except drawing new graphics, it was much simpler to do with the Civ3 editor than with the rules.txt (no way to place a 1 where it shouldn't).

Something very promising in the Civ3Edit is that you can deeply modifiy the buildings, which was impossible in Civ2 : now, you can say a marketplace doesn't only increase money, but also decreases corruption and producces veteran air units if you want. You can mix&match almost everything. You can tell if this building is militaristic, religious etc (which means they're half cheaper for the Civs with the right traits). The limitation is that you can't mix regular building features with small or great wonders features. For example, if you want to create a "Governor's office", regular building which acts like a forbidden palace, you can't. As always, you currently can't add buildings without a hacked editor. Basically, the only addable things are governments. You can add them as it pleases you.

Currently, it's possible to say a scenario starts at a given era, meaning all Civs have all the techs of previous eras. There is also a "post modern" starting era meaning that all techs have been discovered (there are no post modern techs in the normal game, except future techs).
But it is impossible to restrain the game to a specific era. You have to bypass this by modding the later techs by making them impossible to discover, with a "nil" prerequisite.

There is currently no event editor. As Firaxis didn't talk about it when it comes to PtW, I don't think we'll see it before another XP. The only think we know about the event editor is that Mike Breitkreuz (leader of the Civ3Edit) favors it over a scripting language. It's very probable we'll have eventually an event editor. It's very unlikely we'll have a scripting language.

I didn't see anything about precise objectives in the Civ3Edit. Maybe this will come with the "fully functional scenario editor", maybe not. Currently, it's impossible to tell "the winner must have 2000 culture by the year 10 AD" or something. You can just toggle the victory conditions.

Changing turn duration : it's currently completely rigid. No matter the difficulty you play, there will always be 540 turns between 4000 BC and 2050 AD. Even when you start in the "postmodern" era, you still start at 4000 BC, AFAIK. I suppose the turn duration will be modable in the June editor, but it's not sure. Same for the starting year.

Currently, there is no such thing as an "event" in Civ3. Even the slightest event (like write "It's year 2002, George Lucas releases Episode 2") cannot be coded. As the editor is very late on schedule, I don't think we will do this anytime soon.

In other words, Civ3 scenarios should have everything Civ2 had plus more

We still don't have what Civ2 had. But we already have some things Civ2 hadn't : the ability to completely edit buildings and governments, the ability to mod ALL graphics (you won't have an Abe head when you'll talk to the chief Dinosaur anymore), plus the ability to mod features which didn't exist in Civ2 (resources, culture).

As a conclusion, Civ3Edit is a minimapless map editor, a good rules editor, but is currently no scenario editor at all. It shows a great potential though, and I can't wait to see it complete.

[sgrig]

Currently there are no details whatsoever about the Scenario editor which will ship in June.

I'm praying that it at least includes possibility of placing cities and units onto the map and and an ability to test the scenario!

As far as new units and tech advances are concerned, all of that can already be done in the Civ3 editor. It's just more complicated to make graphics for Civ3 because units are animated. The only thing which is hard-coded is that there have to be 4 eras, and no more. There are however some stupid restrictions, such that the maximum air range is 8 tiles! This makes European-theatre WW2 scenarios and Cold War scenarios practically impossible to make!

I hope Firaxis does include the concept of 'objective cities' for scenarios, as there was in Civ2. Otherwise, in PTW there will be lots more different victory conditions - such as killing the King and capturing any one city, plus of course all the other victory conditions currently available in Civ3. However what I would like to see is for those conditions to be customised for scenarios - for example getting 50,000 culture points for victory instead of 100,000 or dominating 1/2 the world rather than 2/3.

[Spiffor]

Jeff Morris wrote
The ability to customize the map with cities and units, create new ones, etc will be possible in the patch editor however

I just seen it in the other scenario thread

[sgrig]

Excellent! One daily prayer less now...

[Steve Clark]

Originally posted by Spiffor
The concept of a specific Civ -which is needed to implement cities, units etc- only exists since the latest patch.

Thank you, Spiffor, that was very informative. I have heard about the latest patch including the "concept of a specific Civ". Can you or someone explain that further?

[Spiffor]

In fact, before the latest patch, the editor didn't even know that a Civ could be different from another Civ. A Civ was a Civ, period. That's why starting positions applied to all Civs rather than only one. (you sure could place a starting position in Italy on your map, but you had 1 chance out of 16 that the Romans started there).
Now, the Editor understands that a Civ is different from the other. You can go in the "Civ property" window in the Civ3Edit. It has currently no concrete consequence. The only thing you can currently do with this is placing named Barbarian camps. But the editor understands the concept of a Civ, which means it will be able to place specifically Roman cities and Roman units in the near future. Before, it would have been impossible for the editor to say if this unit was Roman or German ; that's why it is impossible to place units or cities currently.

To be clearer : the concept of specific Civs is already here, but we can't do anything about it for now. In 1.21f patch, it is still impossible to place fixed starting positions without hacked tools, impossible to place cities and units on the map. But it should come with the next patch.

[player1]

Try some scenraios in Civ3 files forums, like New Earh, Warlords, etc...

They use some of the FEATURES of 1.21f patch.

Warlords is good sceanrio.
New Earth is more like demonstaration of possibilities.

[Harlan]

Regarding having an objective point system in Civ3, check out this paragraph from the Jeff Morris interview:

Things like Regicide and Capture the Flag. We've also let players set victory conditions so you can win a game by capturing a single enemy city -- first one to lose a city loses the game! Or maybe a culture victory or something like that. We've even added Victory Points to the game as an option. Some locations can be worth more than others. If you hold them at the end of the game the one with the most points wins. Capture the Flag also centers on Victory Points. The really cool thing about a game like this which covers the whole of history is that a Regicide game that takes place in medieval times is radically different than a game with ICBMs and bombers. Couple that with the fact that the kings are going to be the actual leaders, and you might find yourself hunting down Gandhi to win the game.

[Joe R. Golowka]

A regicide scenario could be used to create scenarios where you chase Pancho Villa around Mexico or try to hunt down Bin Laden.