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[Paddy]

Short reply indeed

[Paddy]

1075bc to MWIA

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
Should I be worried about the biggest guy who helps me out, offers me gifts etc, or the second biggest guy who was sneaky enough to find a way to screw me without declaring war?

Perhaps a more pertinent comparison would be:

Should you be worried about the second-biggest guy who calls a spade a spade, attacks only when attacked himself and continues to propose peaceful solutions, or the biggest guy who calls on you to knock down his biggest rival sacrificing your military (not his) by ostensibly helping you out and giving you gifts, clearly to further his own interests, but offers no ideas as to how our world can live together in harmony?

Great Mayan, you are certainly in a difficult predicament, being located between 2 significant powers. But in order to remain a major power, I respectfully suggest that you must become more single-minded and independent in your endeavours. You will not find the Iroquois people ungrateful for your neutrality concerning the enmity thas developed (from no fault of ours) between the Iroquois and the Greeks. But continue this pointless war, and your people will certainly suffer very soon, mark my words. Where will the Greek man be then, to offer you comfort for your lost cities? Will he offer up his own in reparations? I think not

[Aqualung71]

Ah, it's disappointing how this rather interesting game has slowed down so much lately

[Aqualung71]

Having reflected upon some recent diplomatic dispatches, I would like to take the opportunity to point out a serious error of fact on the part of the Mayan leader:

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
In essence, it has been your refusal to respect established national borders of at least two nations.....

.....by claiming Mayan sovereign land as your own.

Whilst I understand your annoyance at losing certain lands through cultural border changes, your statement is demonstrably incorrect in terms of international law.

If I was to establish a town within existing Mayan borders, that would certainly be "claiming Mayan sovereign land". This indeed is tantamount to a declaration of war.

However, border changes due to cultural expansion can in no way be interpreted as stealing the sovereign land of another nation. All nations have the opportunity to develop their culture, and all leaders are fully aware of the perils of ignoring cultural improvements. If you chose to build other structures or indeed military units in the town in question, that was your decision and I do not doubt it was made after weighing up the possible consequences of not building cultural improvements. I might add that the Mayan town in question was established long before its Iroquois neighbour, and so you had ample opportunity to secure its cultural borders.

What followed was a clear display of Mayan aggression and contemptuous disregard for the sovereignty of the Iroquois nation and indeed the value of human life. You razed my town.

My words speak for themselves, and no court of law in the civilised world would disagree with me.

The Mayan leader, despite his claims of self-preservation, has indulged himself in what can only be described as genocide, and will go down in history alongside the likes of Hitler and Stalin for his evil deeds.

I reiterate that I understand your annoyance at losing lands through cultural expansion. However, you are quite incorrect in your statements. The Iroquois stole no land, and did not claim the land of others. International law supports my assertion. The Mayan leader exterminated an entire Iroquois town without any specific military provocation on our part. That is genocide.

The case is clear. If there was a fair international war crimes tribunal in our lands, they would have your head, good sir

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
All nations have the opportunity to develop their culture, and all leaders are fully aware of the perils of ignoring cultural improvements. If you chose to build other structures or indeed military units in the town in question, that was your decision and I do not doubt it was made after weighing up the possible consequences of not building cultural improvements. I might add that the Mayan town in question was established long before its Iroquois neighbour, and so you had ample opportunity to secure its cultural borders.

So in essence 'take, lest it be taken from you'? If one lives by such a philosophy, there is no argument against 'attack, lest you be attacked first'. I would say that the philosophy followed by the Mayan people, of an eye (my land and Gems) for an eye (you township) was more than generous in light of the one the Iroquois leader appears to be espousing.

What followed was a clear display of Mayan aggression and contemptuous disregard for the sovereignty of the Iroquois nation and indeed the value of human life. You razed my town.

You steal my land. I raze your town. You wipe out my stack. This is called escalation. It tends to run along these lines, and if one is searching for a blame factor - the blame lies with the first offense, the one who sets the whole chain of events in progress.

The most disturbing thing of all is that the land steal was done with a criminal lack of disregard for the Iroquois' neighbours, we Mayans, who had shown no sign of aggression or overexpansion towards the Iroquois. Indeed discussions put forth by the Mayans had been naught but cordial until this event. The Mayans and Greeks (for example) had been involved in friendly exchanges for decades before, and even now that our borders bump up against each other, one people consult the other before attempting anything even remotely involving the other's land, people or resources, even dealing with areas about which no formally signed agreement exists!

This is a good neighbour policy, and it is followed by all civil, considerate governments towards all other peoples. That the Iroquois government flagrantly refused to consider the concerns of the Mayans when expanding their cultural borders to take that which was never theirs and which was even offered peaceably in an exchange not too long before is the lowest form of betrayal, and the most belligerent of all.

Reports of the Iroquois people have not been numerous since this hostile attack on the land of the Mayans, but if the Iroquois people are now well represented by their leaders in the belief that they need consider only their own whims in a world populated by many, perhaps they are not worthy of living alongside others. Never before has there been a sign of those for whom extermination could be a blessing on the world, instead of a blight.

If we must suffer in order to remove those who have proven themselves, by their actions, to be inimical to living alongside others, then the burden will be gladly shouldered.

To Aqua.

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
If we must suffer in order to remove those who have proven themselves, by their actions, to be inimical to living alongside others, then the burden will be gladly shouldered.

As indeed you will suffer.....and are suffering. A glorious and hard fought battle has taken place, and vengeance for destroying our town has now been satisfied. Whether or not there are more glorious, but ultimately pointless battles is completely up to you.

You steal my land. I raze your town. You wipe out my stack. This is called escalation

Go ahead and continue to escalate this conflagration, if indeed you are still able to. If not, you will always find me willing to talk terms.


1050BC to Bogor, the patient Greek.

[MrWhereItsAt]

Congratulations.

Although previously there was the possibility of negotiating a peace, with even further taking of vital Mayan land you have guaranteed that you will not see the end of this war until I am destroyed or land is restored to pre-1425BC levels.

I cannot compete on a long-term with this little land close to my capital. You have forced my hand; I have no choice.

I hope you can take enjoyment from this knowledge. I certainly do not.

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
...with even further taking of vital Mayan land

I beg to differ....the taking of Calakmul was simply replacing Iroquois land owned before you RAZED my town. Your propaganda is wasted.

I hope you can take enjoyment from this knowledge. I certainly do not.

And neither do I. As I have already indicated, I am more than willing to talk terms now that I have extracted payment for razing my town. It is now you who refuse to consider peace - let the world know this.

And I might add, your statement implies that once you had RAZED my town (settled in neutral territory that you somehow felt was yours by right), you were then willing to make peace. What naivety is this from the Mayan leader? Perhaps he is now learning more about the justices of the world in which we live!

[Paddy]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
Ah, it's disappointing how this rather interesting game has slowed down so much lately

maybe we could arrange a time when all 4 of us will be online

thus try to get a series of turns knocked over

this was one of the reasons this game was started

so we could have sessions

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by Paddy the Scot

maybe we could arrange a time when all 4 of us will be online

What, so we can all kill each other more quickly?

Hey Greek man, what do I have to do to get peace with you?

[MrWhereItsAt]

Originally posted by Aqualung71
What, so we can all kill each other more quickly?

Yes, so we can hasten the end of this terrible as **** game.

[Paddy]

1050bc to MWIA

[Bogor]

Aqua, to get peace with me, you'll have to return all the lands you have illegally taken from my friends & disarm your forces. Thus I expect this to happen next turn. :P


Yeah some turns while we're all online would be great. Maybe Sunday evening?

[Aqualung71]

Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt

Yes, so we can hasten the end of this terrible as **** game.

Oh come now sir, it's not as bad as all that. The fun with civ is the challenge of pulling yourself out of a difficult situation.....and your situation is far from hopeless...in fact, your diplomacy skills give you the edge over all of us